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Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother[W:52]

Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

What is it you are trying to master?

Do you think such intentional tactics using insulting over the top vitriol furthers discussion or kill it and drive people away from threads like this?

people who want to strip Citizens of rights are scumbags. do you support such scumbags?
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

None of those products are made for the purpose of killing. Even a knife has many other uses other than a weapon.

so does a gun.
a gun is used for target shooting or skeet shooting.

can be used for many purposes other than killing.

again those products don't have to be made for the purpose of killing. this is just a poor argument.

the fact is you need to go sue those industries since people abuse them to go kill tons of people with.
sue pool makers while you are at it because far more people die in pools than are killed by guns.

or ladder makers as more people are killed falling off a ladder.
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

so does a gun.
a gun is used for target shooting or skeet shooting.

can be used for many purposes other than killing.

again those products don't have to be made for the purpose of killing. this is just a poor argument.

the fact is you need to go sue those industries since people abuse them to go kill tons of people with.
sue pool makers while you are at it because far more people die in pools than are killed by guns.

or ladder makers as more people are killed falling off a ladder.

accidently yes, in total deaths no that is not correct
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

The stats I've seen show that overall violent crime is much higher in all of Europe than in the US. How those stats are determined I do not know but every source I have seen uses the same(or very similar) statistics.

Then you need to check out the facts for yourself. These reports tend to use the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports for their US stats. The criteria for defining a “violent crime” use one of four specific offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. Anything else is not recorded as being' violent crime'. As I pointed out before, in the UK 'violent crime' is defined by the British Home Office as all crimes against the person. No wonder it's higher. I know that especially in the gun crime debate gleeful right-wingers pick up on this misleading statistical error as 'proof' to use to oppose gun control, but an error it most certainly is.
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

there, fixed it for you

Only an American could believe that given you are seven times more likely to be killed by your own gun than by that of a criminal :roll:
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

Only an American could believe that given you are seven times more likely to be killed by your own gun than by that of a criminal :roll:

Says who?
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

Says who?

Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.
For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home.

http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/9/1/48.full
Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study
Firearms in US homes as a risk factor for unintentional gunshot fatality
Injuries and deaths due to firearms in ... - PubMed Mobile - NCBI

The ability to play at being Rambo or Dirty Harry comes at a very great cost to your wider society based on every comparative statistic out there

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.
For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home.

Association between handgun purchase and mortality from firearm injury -- Grassel et al. 9 (1): 48 -- Injury Prevention
Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study
Firearms in US homes as a risk factor for unintentional gunshot fatality
Injuries and deaths due to firearms in ... - PubMed Mobile - NCBI

The ability to play at being Rambo or Dirty Harry comes at a very great cost to your wider society based on every comparative statistic out there

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes I would agree owning a makes one more likely to be inured in a gun accident, much like owning a home with stairs makes one more likely to take a tumble down the stairs, big no brainer.

Suicide is a personal choice, that doesn't factor into my risks.

Owning a gun is among the many risk factors for homicide, and the most minor of them. The primary risk factors are drugs, gangs, and criminal activity. I participate in none of those, so I am not 7 times more likely to be killed with my own gun. Your study indicates that you linked, I am at most 3.4 times more likely. Which since unintentional shooting deaths are not even 1000 a year, out of 2.5 million people who die every year of everything, I'm not even worried. Quit smoking three years ago which kills many more people, I am happy with those numbers

Firearm related death rAte is an inveted number made only to push gun control laws. It factors nothing into it other then gun related deaths, whether they be justified, police shootings, accidents (which when controlled shooting is safer then nearly every other sport) etc. it's a raw number without specific meaning
 
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Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

Yes I would agree owning a makes one more likely to be inured in a gun accident, much like owning a home with stairs makes one more likely to take a tumble down the stairs, big no brainer.

If you don't have a gun that risk is taken out of the equation. Rather more people get shot than get killed falling down stairs

Suicide is a personal choice, that doesn't factor into my risks.

But it does in the wider society given that firearms make a suicide attempt that much more likely to be successful

Owning a gun is among the many risk factors for homicide, and the most minor of them.

Nonsense. 72% of all homicides in the states are committed using a firearm

The primary risk factors are drugs, gangs, and criminal activity.

We have those too but we also have a 40 times lesser chance of being shot and a 5 times less chance of being murdered overall despite our criminal activity

I participate in none of those, so I am not 7 times more likely to be killed with my own gun

The facts differ. You are in fact putting yourself and your family at greatly increased risk by keeping a gun at home

Firearm related death rAte is an inveted number made only to push gun control laws. It factors nothing into it other then gun related deaths, whether they be justified, police shootings, accidents (which when controlled shooting is safer then nearly every other sport) etc. it's a raw number without specific meaning

Dismissal of the facts is easy when the legitimacy of owning guns is threatened. Like I said earlier its uniquely weird US sensibilities that value guns over people
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

If you don't have a gun that risk is taken out of the equation. Rather more people get shot than get killed falling down stairs
not accidentally with their own guns though, which is part of what you're claiming



But it does in the wider society given that firearms make a suicide attempt that much more likely to be successful
Nope try again, many places in the world have higher rates of suicide then the United States.



Nonsense. 72% of all homicides in the states are committed using a firearm
no you insisted owning a firearm is a major risk factor for homicide, that's a completely separate statement then the method of committing a murder, you're now attempting to muddy the waters



We have those too but we also have a 40 times lesser chance of being shot and a 5 times less chance of being murdered overall despite our criminal activity
if you lived where I do your chances would be identical, crime in the US is clustered and violent crime overwhelmingly falls on those already involved in criminal activity. If you're walking down the streets of most american cities minding your own business you are in no greater risk here. You are applying raw numbers without controls.



The facts differ. You are in fact putting yourself and your family at greatly increased risk by keeping a gun at home
Again wrong, since you like to play the uncontrolled raw number game, the BJS statistic for defensive gun uses is over half a million every year, and accidental gun deaths is maybe 400, it's not high. So that logic makes owning a gun the sensible thing to do.



Dismissal of the facts is easy when the legitimacy of owning guns is threatened. Like I said earlier its uniquely weird US sensibilities that value guns over people

1) your facts are without context and based on assumptions that do not apply to the reality of the situation
2) your last sentence is one of the most pathetic strawmen I have ever seen
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

not accidentally with their own guns though, which is part of what you're claiming

No more often than not its by other family members

Nope try again, many places in the world have higher rates of suicide then the United States.

Your figures would be considerably lower though without guns. They make suicide easier to commit

no you insisted owning a firearm is a major risk factor for homicide, that's a completely separate statement then the method of committing a murder, you're now attempting to muddy the waters

Nonsense. Nearly three quarters of your homicides are firearms related

if you lived where I do your chances would be identical, crime in the US is clustered and violent crime overwhelmingly falls on those already involved in criminal activity. If you're walking down the streets of most american cities minding your own business you are in no greater risk here. You are applying raw numbers without controls.

We have crime too but are still 5 times less likely to be murdered than you as are our criminals. Where do you think your criminals got their guns in the first place ?

Again wrong, since you like to play the uncontrolled raw number game, the BJS statistic for defensive gun uses is over half a million every year, and accidental gun deaths is maybe 400, it's not high. So that logic makes owning a gun the sensible thing to do.

You've already been shown the facts so theres little more I can add

1) your facts are without context and based on assumptions that do not apply to the reality of the situation

And you'll go through hoops to evade such facts in defence of the indefensible

2) your last sentence is one of the most pathetic strawmen I have ever seen

The truth hurts I know but that doesn't stop it being the truth nonetheless. What kind of sick society would react to the Sandy Hook massacre in this fashion

Walmart Out Of Guns As Americans Race For Arms After Newtown

Demand for guns is soaring in the U.S. after the Sandy Hook Elementary shooting, pumping up the price of firearms and ammunition as sellers race to replenish their stock.

Walmart has reportedly sold out of semi-automatic rifles in five states, including Pennsylvania, Kansas and Alabama, according to a Wednesday report from Bloomberg.


Nuff said
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

people who want to strip Citizens of rights are scumbags. do you support such scumbags?

Two points -
1- I do not support denying people their Constitutional rights.
2- the use of such vitriolic terms such as ASSHOLES, SCUMBAGS, BLOOMTARDS and others to characterize a particular holder of a position is not advancing debate - it should be avoided and the high road taken instead.
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

so does a gun.
a gun is used for target shooting or skeet shooting.

can be used for many purposes other than killing.

again those products don't have to be made for the purpose of killing. this is just a poor argument.

It is the truth that firearms were made as weapons to fire and kill with. When one uses it for that purpose they are using it for the invented purpose.
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

accidently yes, in total deaths no that is not correct

does it matter now really. a death is a death whether you do it to yourself or someone else does it.

yet we don't sue these companies when people do stupid things with their products.
you can try but it is thrown out of court as not the companies fault.

it is a semantics game. and a poor one at that.
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

It is the truth that firearms were made as weapons to fire and kill with. When one uses it for that purpose they are using it for the invented purpose.

again has nothing to do with the fact fire arm companies are not responsible for what other people do.
just as car makers are not responsible for the drunk guy that goes and kills a bunch of people.

you can repeat the same failed argument all you want to it will still be the same failed argument.

In order for the gun company to be liable there it has to have some culpability in the matter. which it doesn't. it didn't even sell the gun to the kid a gun store sold the gun to his mother. at worst they could try and go after the gun store owner, but then he sold it in a legal matter according to law.

once it is out of his store what is done with the gun is on the owner. she had the gun locked up in a safe. the son must have found the key and opened it.
so even the mother was responsible for the weapon that she had as she kept it locked up.
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

again has nothing to do with the fact fire arm companies are not responsible for what other people do.
just as car makers are not responsible for the drunk guy that goes and kills a bunch of people.

you can repeat the same failed argument all you want to it will still be the same failed argument.

It is an extremely solid argument as when a person uses a firearm as a weapon, that is exactly what the gun was invented for in the first place.
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

It is an extremely solid argument as when a person uses a firearm as a weapon, that is exactly what the gun was invented for in the first place.

no it isn't because a firearm can be used for multiple things.
IE target practice and skeet shooting. both very popular and huge events.

actually the gun was invented for self defense purposes.

no it isn't a solid argument at all. as it has a ton of holes. you still have yet to explain to me how a gun maker is responsible for someone else's actions while a car maker is not responsible for the drunk driver that kills someone in their car.

you say it is intent but both the car and gun are inanimate objects they have no intent. it is the people that use those items that has the intent not the object itself.
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

no it isn't because a firearm can be used for multiple things.
IE target practice and skeet shooting. both very popular and huge events.

actually the gun was invented for self defense purposes.

no it isn't a solid argument at all. as it has a ton of holes. you still have yet to explain to me how a gun maker is responsible for someone else's actions while a car maker is not responsible for the drunk driver that kills someone in their car.

you say it is intent but both the car and gun are inanimate objects they have no intent. it is the people that use those items that has the intent not the object itself.

Get with the program please.Even one of your most vocal gun defenders has already admitted here that guns were invented as weapons.
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

Get with the program please.Even one of your most vocal gun defenders has already admitted here that guns were invented as weapons.

please show me where I said that wasn't the case? I said they are used for skeet shooting and target practice as well.

I am sorry that you have to make up stuff but you still have yet to prove gun makers are responsible for what someone else does with their gun.
just like car makers are not responsible for what drunk people do in their cars.

according to you they should be.
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

please show me where I said that wasn't the case? I said they are used for skeet shooting and target practice as well.

I am sorry that you have to make up stuff but you still have yet to prove gun makers are responsible for what someone else does with their gun.
just like car makers are not responsible for what drunk people do in their cars.

according to you they should be.

Its not JUST LIKE anything to do with cars so knock it off already. The gun was invented as a weapon of death. The car was invented as a mode of transportation. Stop already with the false comparisons.
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

Its not JUST LIKE anything to do with cars so knock it off already. The gun was invented as a weapon of death. The car was invented as a mode of transportation. Stop already with the false comparisons.

All developed nations have auto accident casualties. No one has yet explained why having the large number of additional gun casualties in the US (most of them intentional) yet which are almost absent in other such countries is a good thing
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

Its not JUST LIKE anything to do with cars so knock it off already. The gun was invented as a weapon of death. The car was invented as a mode of transportation. Stop already with the false comparisons.

it doesn't matter why it was invented the fact is you want to hold the maker of something responsible for what someone else does with their gun.
from what I understand all his mom did with the gun was target practice with it.

this is why your argument fails to pass any and all logic.

it isn't a false comparison. according TO YOUR own logic the maker of an item is to be held responsible for the individual that uses that item regardless.
you keep bringing why something was invented which is irrelevant to the actual argument.

you don't like the comparison because it blows your argument out of the water. if you want to talk about intentions.
a gun has no intentions. it is an inanimate object.

the intent of what the gun is used from comes from the person holding it.
so is the maker of the gun holding the gun to determine intent?
the answer is no.

the gun maker has no responsibility what happens when someone else use's the gun. just as chevy has no responsibility when a drunk driver kills people in a accident.
it is the person holding the gun and driving the car that are responsible for their own actions.
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

All developed nations have auto accident casualties. No one has yet explained why having the large number of additional gun casualties in the US (most of them intentional) yet which are almost absent in other such countries is a good thing

so we should be sueing automakers right. I mean they are the cause of all these accidents most fatal. if they didn't produce so many cars and everyone took busses then accidents would go down. so lets start sueing car makers. those evil jerks.

because most gun related incidents are accidents? people in general being stupid with firearms.
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

it doesn't matter why it was invented

NO. It matters and it matters completely. When a firearm is used to kill - it being used exactly for the purpose it was created in the first place. And the maker knows that and was aware of it and makes the product just the same.

So please spare me the excuses and the really atrocious comparison to people driving cars. Cars were invented to transport people. They were NOT invented as weapons of death.
 
Re: Sandy Hook families sue estate of shooter's mother

so we should be sueing automakers right. I mean they are the cause of all these accidents most fatal. if they didn't produce so many cars and everyone took busses then accidents would go down. so lets start sueing car makers. those evil jerks.

because most gun related incidents are accidents? people in general being stupid with firearms.

You didn't answer my question. Auto deaths are almost entirely accidental (and hence unavoidable) and are something the US shares with other developed countries unlike its horrendous firearm stats. There is a big difference between accident and intent here
 
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