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Thread: Lawyers say Canadian-born Cruz eligible to run for president

  1. #91
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    Re: Lawyers say Canadian-born Cruz eligible to run for president

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post


    The same information that the founders relied on.
    What info are you talking about?

    Born to citizens on US soil and owing no foreign allegiances.
    Article 2 Section 1 does reference "natural born citizen" as a presidential requirement.
    The precise definition of "natural born citizen" is not mentioned though.
    I guess the founders wanted future generations to decide that issue.
    No matter how cynical I become toward politicians, it's never enough.

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    Re: Lawyers say Canadian-born Cruz eligible to run for president

    Quote Originally Posted by Summerwind View Post
    Do you by chance have any back up for that assertion? I'd be pleased to read it.
    It's all over the net, just google it.

    Cruz's father, who was born in 1939 in Matanzas, Cuba,[19][20] as Robert T. Garrett of the Dallas Morning News has described, "suffered beatings and imprisonment for protesting the oppressive regime"[19][24] of dictator Fulgencio Batista. He fought for Fidel Castro in the Cuban Revolution[25][26] when he was 14 years old, but "didn't know Castro was a Communist.
    Ted Cruz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Re: Lawyers say Canadian-born Cruz eligible to run for president

    Quote Originally Posted by SenorXm/Sirius View Post
    It's all over the net, just google it.



    Ted Cruz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    IF that's all there is, then I see no problem with that aspect since clearly at some point his father chose to leave Castro's Cuba and immigrated out of there.
    jallman: "It's all good. At least you have a thick skin and can take being poked fun back at without crying. "

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    Re: Lawyers say Canadian-born Cruz eligible to run for president

    Quote Originally Posted by SenorXm/Sirius View Post
    It's all over the net, just google it.



    Ted Cruz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Meh. Not a big deal.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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    Re: Lawyers say Canadian-born Cruz eligible to run for president

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    Meh. Not a big deal.
    I don't think it's a big deal either. I just want to sit back and enjoy comedy as the TP and conservatives blast Cruz because of his father. For 6 tears because of the 'sins of Obama's father' of being Muslim they called Obama all sorts of vicious names and accusations. Sins of the father must then apply to Cruz's communist father too. We all know the TP and conservatives aren't hypocritical so they'll treat Cruz the same.
    "The school is the last expenditure upon which America should be willing to economize."~F.D.R.
    "Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other."~Mark Twain

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    Re: Lawyers say Canadian-born Cruz eligible to run for president

    Quote Originally Posted by SenorXm/Sirius View Post
    I don't think it's a big deal either. I just want to sit back and enjoy comedy as the TP and conservatives blast Cruz because of his father. For 6 tears because of the 'sins of Obama's father' of being Muslim they called Obama all sorts of vicious names and accusations. Sins of the father must then apply to Cruz's communist father too. We all know the TP and conservatives aren't hypocritical so they'll treat Cruz the same.
    Oh, I'm sure they will lol
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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    Re: Lawyers say Canadian-born Cruz eligible to run for president

    Quote Originally Posted by radioman View Post
    What info are you talking about?

    ...

    Article 2 Section 1 does reference "natural born citizen" as a presidential requirement.
    The precise definition of "natural born citizen" is not mentioned though.
    I guess the founders wanted future generations to decide that issue.
    I believe Excon is referring to "jurisdiction"...persons born on U.S. soil or U.S. territory. Some folks imply that such birth must include two U.S. citizen parents, but not even the Naturalization Act of 1790 required such as even a free White Man who lived in the U.S. for (initially) a minimum of 2 years (later increasing to as much as 14 years) could bear a child abroad and said child would be deemed "natural-born". Moreover, recent U.S. District/Appeals Court rulings have made it clear that one U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to confer U.S. citizenship and, thus, natural-born status unto the child.


    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Huffy? That would be a product of your own thoughts.
    But I do see you are continuing to misstate the positions. And no, it hasn't continued to change over time. It has always meant the same thing. It was wrongly changed one time and later corrected.
    Congress really hasn't done anything either. And the requirement does not just have to do with the soil. So there is no holding true to the requirement if it is not being followed.


    The distinction is pretty clear as to who is and isn't.
    The only problem is those who want to support their candidate, party, and their ill-informed opinion arguing the opposite.

    Your postings?
    I do not need to search the forum for your posts if you can not be bothered to provide them.

    The only thing we seem to agree with is what I originally stated.
    The Supreme Court has not settled this issue.
    Are you always so difficult even when folks agree with you even a little bit? Lighten up!

    I agree with you that neither Ted Cruz nor John McCain meet the definition of natural-born at birth as neither were born on U.S. soil/territory. I would also content that if U.S. District/Appeals Courts hadn't upheld natural-born citizen status as someone born to the soil by at least one U.S. citizen parent, we'd still be heavily debating Pres. Obama's NBC status to date. That said, like you I'd much rather the matter finally be settled by the Supreme Court as the issue will invariably rear its ugly head again....and again...and again as time passes until true clarity is brought to the situation.

    As for searching for my prior posting to this forum on the subject matter at hand, I wasn't asking you to. It was merely a point of reference should your curiosity (or anyone else's for that matter) pursued you to so investigate. Frankly, I'd much rather leave this issue be as there's no reason to all over again. Besides, I do hate re-opening old wounds...gives me such a headache.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 03-15-15 at 07:49 PM.
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    Re: Lawyers say Canadian-born Cruz eligible to run for president

    Quote Originally Posted by radioman View Post
    What info are you talking about?
    Obviously you are not paying attention to the other information provided in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by radioman View Post
    Article 2 Section 1 does reference "natural born citizen" as a presidential requirement.
    The precise definition of "natural born citizen" is not mentioned though.
    I guess the founders wanted future generations to decide that issue.
    No.
    They knew what it meant.
    Just as you know what the word summer means right now.
    Just as you know what smart-phone means right now.
    If those words/wording somehow become unused those in the future can look back at the historical record and determine what they meant.

    Just as those in the future could, we also know what was meant from the historical record of the time.

    As I previously stated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    The answers should be an obvious "of course" as they are different distinctions. The founders intentionally made the distinction for a purpose.
    Obviously they knew what that distinction was.
    And that is more than evident from Vattel’s Law of Nations which our founders relied on, that those born of Citizens on a Country's soil makes one a natural born citizen.
    Which is further enforced by the letter to Washington from John Jay suggesting that the distinction be made for the Commander in Chief, as the natural state of being a natural born citizen does not come with allegiances to a foreign country.


    But I am sure you have no idea what I am speaking about whereas the other person I was speaking to did.
    So with that understanding ...

    On July 25, 1787, John Jay wrote to George Washington, presiding officer of the Convention:

    Permit me to hint, whether it would not be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government, and to declare expressly that the Command in chief of the American army shall not be given to, nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen.[15]

    While the Committee on Detail originally proposed that the President must be merely a citizen as well as a resident for 21 years, the Committee of Eleven changed "citizen" to "natural born citizen" without recorded explanation after receiving Jay's letter. The Convention accepted the change without further recorded debate.[16]

    Natural-born-citizen clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Continued below.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle

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    Re: Lawyers say Canadian-born Cruz eligible to run for president

    As to Vattel.

    Benjamin Franklin shared Jefferson’s admiration for Vattel. In 1775, Franklin wrote in a letter:

    I am much obliged by the kind present you have made us of your edition of Vattel. It came to us in good season, when the circumstances of a rising state make it necessary frequently to consult the law of nations. Accordingly that copy, which I kept, (after depositing one in our own public library here, and sending the other to the College of Massachusetts Bay, as you directed,) has been continually in the hands of the members of our Congress, now sitting, who are much pleased with your notes and preface, and have entertained a high and just esteem for their author.

    Next, consider the irrefutable fact that Vattel’s interpretations of the law of nature were cited more frequently than any other writer’s on international law in cases heard in the courts of the early United States, and the Law of Nations was the primary textbook on the subject in use in American universities.

    For all the foregoing reasons we are right to turn to the Swss-born Vattel’s Law of Nations for our understanding of the definition of “natural born citizen” just as our Founding Fathers did.

    To that end, here are a few relevant selections from Vattel’s Law of Nations regarding the concept of “natural born citizen”:


    § 212: “Natural born citizens are those born in a country to parents who are also citizens of that country. Particularly, if the father of the person is not a citizen then the child is not a citizen either. Children cannot inherit from parents rights not enjoyed by them.”

    § 213: “While those individuals described above may be permitted to remain in the country of their birth, they are not naturally endowed with the rights of citizens.”

    § 214: “A country may allow a person born in a country to foreign parents the status of citizenship, this is called naturalization. That is a function of law, not of birthright.”

    §§ 215, 216 & 217: “Children born overseas to parents who are foreigners in that country do not become natural born citizens of that country, rather they are citizens of the country to which their parents owe allegiance.”
    Argument as provided in reference to Rubio and Jindal not being eligible.


    But you can you can find Vattel's work here for yourself.
    Emmerich de Vattel: The Law of Nations
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: Lawyers say Canadian-born Cruz eligible to run for president

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    but not even the Naturalization Act of 1790 required
    The 1790 act is not in effect.
    It is not applicable.

    Congress in their wisdom changed the wording.
    There is a reason for that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Are you always so difficult even when folks agree with you even a little bit? Lighten up!
    I am not being difficult. So maybe you should follow your own advice and lighten up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I would also content that if U.S. District/Appeals Courts hadn't upheld natural-born citizen status as someone born to the soil by at least one U.S. citizen parent, we'd still be heavily debating Pres. Obama's NBC status to date.
    That isn't what happened.
    Better yet; Proof?

    When a plaintiff has no standing to challenge, the court can not make any ruling on the issue presented.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    As for searching for my prior posting to this forum on the subject matter at hand, I wasn't asking you to. It was merely a point of reference should your curiosity (or anyone else's for that matter) pursued you to so investigate. Frankly, I'd much rather leave this issue be as there's no reason to all over again. Besides, I do hate re-opening old wounds...gives me such a headache.
    Well I would like to see this question you supposedly asked. Verify it is as you stated and see if there was a reply to it.
    Suggesting I look for it when I have no idea of what the search criteria (key words, what was specifically asked, etc...) would be for a post "years old", is really kind of absurd.
    As for the rest ... Old wounds?
    For me trying to explain the nuances in the Constitution, Law, Case Law, versus that of just dicta, gives me a headache.
    As well has having to continually point out that 1790 Act is no longer in effect and was replaced by the Act of 1795 which changed the wording.
    The changed wording goes more to intent than the actual wording of the 1790 Act.

    Beating a dead-horse?
    Well if they are considering running. the issue really isn't dead, is it?
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle

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