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Thread: Jeb's Email Problem

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    Re: Jeb's Email Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    So you think Hillary should turn over her server for examination, to an outside auditor?
    I think she should. I think she would be stupid not to. Heck, I think she will.

    (as soon as her people are done removing everything that might cause her problems)
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    Re: Jeb's Email Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Well, maybe it's not so much about the job in as much as it is how they followed the law. It's a law in Florida for all officials to turn over all their government related emails and that includes the governor. Apparently there were over 250K emails in Jeb's private email account...but he only turned in 55K as government related. Like Hillary, he was also allowed to decide which emails to save and which to delete...so if Jeb does grab the GOP nomination then it's only fair that he should have to face the same scrutiny as Hillary regarding what emails he deleted and why.
    I often wonder if the well-funded partisan hacks of "progressive research" are completely tin-eared to their own irony? This Jeb Bush 'talking point' is a sudden new "discovery" by American Bridge 21st Century; an organization who promises its readers that their organization "...understand(s) the frustration you feel with elected officials who campaign on one set of principles but govern by another, because we feel it too. We believe you deserve better than that. We think our elected officials should have one set of principles, not one for each set of special interests they represent."

    Apparently, however, they don't bother with monitoring all elected officials, because they only go after Republicans (which the website admits as its real mission). Gee...I wonder if they know how that sounds to someone undecided about taking them seriously?

    So, their self-assigned job is to create disinformation. Yet the progressive "choir" swallows every half-baked "truthie" passed around, never embarrassed or skeptical of their sources. So let's get on our hip-waders and look at the TRUTH.

    Florida:

    1) If these "progressives" had bothered to read the statutes in question (of 2007), they would have actually found that the Chapter on Public Records has NO REFERENCEs to email, nor does it include email among its list of examples of specific records. In short, emails as public records were not defined or addressed in Florida law.

    2) Bush was the first Governor to introduce and substantively use email (in 1999). And when he left employment any real "records" were to be returned, but it was up to him to decide if thought of his unofficial emails (his private ones) should be archived. Although not requested to, on his own he has delivered several huge caches since leaving. And you can access all 250,000 of them (official and private) that he has put on-line (not 55,000).

    3) Unlike Clinton, there was no concealment or attempt at concealment. The personal server was not in his house, it was also housed state offices. CBS reported that everyone knew about his 'tech savvy' system. Nor was there was a Florida legislative committee chasing down where important emails were located (hidden), nor was there a State archivist 'negotiating' with him to provide emails. He just did it on his own, starting in 2007 (after he left office).

    Note:

    The existence of Bush’s private email address was widely known to the public and to the press when he served as governor, and he routinely fielded public and press inquiries himself using the address.
    Another big difference is that while Clinton was not open about her private email use, Bush was transparent about the fact that he was using a private account, according to First Amendment Foundation president Barbara Petersen.

    "There’s nothing in the public records law about personal accounts," Petersen said about rules in Florida. "Some agencies have policies discouraging the use of personal accounts, but that was after Bush left office."

    If there is any question that emails had been left out of Bush’s disclosure, a person or group could make a public records request and file a civil suit if they think something’s missing, she said. State law does allow private inspections of electronic devices if warranted to find missing texts and emails. But no one has made that challenge of Bush, Petersen said.
    Finally IF Bush actually had an e-mail that was defined as a record in 2007, AND if he did not turn them over within 10 days of a request (which was not requested), then he be liable to a 500.00 fine and a non-criminal violation of code.

    Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine
    Jeb Bush owns his own email server | MSNBC
    Jeb Bush edited his own emails, says liberal PAC | PolitiFact Florida

    Anymore nonsense comparisons?
    Last edited by maxparrish; 03-14-15 at 01:21 AM.

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    Re: Jeb's Email Problem

    What you said is not true

    Quote Originally Posted by maxparrish View Post
    So let's look at Florida:

    1) If these "progressives" had bothered to read the statutes in question they would have looked at the Florida statutes of 2007. The would find that the Chapter on Public Records has NO REFERENCE to email, nor does it include email among its list of examples of specific records. In short, emails as public records were not defined or addressed in Florida law.
    The statute defines public records as
    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...20011#0119.011

    (11) "Public records" means all documents, papers, letters, maps, books, tapes, photographs, films, sound recordings, data processing software, or other material, regardless of the physical form, characteristics, or means of transmission, made or received pursuant to law or ordinance or in connection with the transaction of official business by any agency.

    2) Bush was the first Governor to substantively to introduce and use email. When he left employment any "records" were to be returned, it was up to him to decide if thought of his unofficial emails (his private ones) should be archived. Although not requested to, on his own he has delivered several huge caches since leaving. And you can access 250,000 of them that he has put on-line.
    The law requires that he submit all public records when he leaves office. Not some time later
    (4)(a) Whoever has custody of any public records shall deliver, at the expiration of his or her term of office, to his or her successor or, if there be none, to the records and information management program of the Division of Library and Information Services of the Department of State, all public records kept or received by him or her in the transaction of official business.

    3) Unlike Clinton, there was no concealment. The server was not in his house, his private one was also housed state offices. CBS reported that everyone knew about his 'tech savvy' system. Nor was there was a Florida legislative committee chasing down where he put his emails, or a State archivist 'negotiating' with him to provide emails. He just did it on his own, starting in 2007.
    Of course there was concealment. He did not deliver the records when he was supposed to so they were not available for FOIA requests.
    Last edited by sangha; 03-14-15 at 01:24 AM.
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    Re: Jeb's Email Problem

    Hey, if Jeb even knows how to work an email account that would be a plus in my eyes.

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    Re: Jeb's Email Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I think she should. I think she would be stupid not to. Heck, I think she will.

    (as soon as her people are done removing everything that might cause her problems)
    If Hillary is Hillary, she will have stuff erased. Then IT folks will find evidence of extraordinary efforts to obliterate data, far beyond that of simple deletion. Then the the controversy will start all over again.

    Either that, or like Lerner and her folks, she will have "crashes" that she will say required her to take the server to a landfill...but she can't remember where. (She has a problem with her memory, if you remember the "I don't recall" Hillary testimony in the 1990s.

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    Re: Jeb's Email Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    What you said is not true

    The statute defines public records as

    (11) "Public records" means all documents, papers, letters, maps, books, tapes, photographs, films, sound recordings, data processing software, or other material, regardless of the physical form, characteristics, or means of transmission, made or received pursuant to law or ordinance or in connection with the transaction of official business by any agency.
    Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes :->2007->Ch0119->Section 011 : Online Sunshine
    As I said, in the list of public records email is NOT specifically mentioned. Everything mentioned is tangible "material". And if you read closely IF a document, letter, papers, or other material (not immaterial emails) etc. are transmitted (e.g. a fax of a paper) they might be a record. However, if an email does not contain 'a document, letter, or other material' then arguably it is not a record.

    And if you read the whole chapter you will see the working definition of a "public record" is of that of tangible materials, and it does not speak to emails, most likely because no one had really thought about the need to be clear. (In the chapter, it speaks of permanent and archival records to be kept in fireproof vaults, record books bound, rebinding processes, physically copying records from the "original book", retention schedules, etc.). The do infer that some kinds records are on electronic record-keeping systems managed by IT (e.g. documents), but that is as close as it gets.

    The law requires that he submit all public records when he leaves office. Not some time later.
    Except that it is not clear that under 2007 that an email, which is an immaterial (not "other material") thing is a public record - not unless it actually contains a document, letter, etc. connected to official business. In other words, an email that says "Keep me posted on the progress of project Y" is not likely a public record in 2007 (or before). Whereas, the attachment of a document (e.g. a contract), would be. Of course if it had a document attached, it would almost certainly be filed in hard copy at the time of its creation and printing.

    Of course there was concealment. He did not deliver the records when he was supposed to so they were not available for FOIA requests.
    First, under Florida law you must prove there was willful and intentional violation of the Chapter. When the law is silent on emails as a public record, it is near impossible to prove there was anything subject to illegal concealment.

    Second, publicly touting that to the Florida public that you (Bush) have your own server in State offices, and public email addresses, while also using the State system for official business, is not going to sell a plot "concealment" narrative to a jury.

    Three, to my knowledge there is no FOIA requests or legal investigations that were impeded because "public records" were concealed by Bush. And there has been no complaints or need to 'negotiate' with the State archivist...he did so on his own initiative.

    Of course, if unintended he is still subject to a civil fine of 500 dollars. (LOL).

    Now look at Hillary:

    First, federal definitions of public records and email are very clear. So is the requirement to specifically provide those emails to her department, in an electronic form, contemporaneous with their creation. And all of this is backed up by executive orders from the President, and State Department manuals. Instead, she waited two years, AND only produced some records when pressured by a Congressional investigation and the State Department...all of which triggered knowledge of her 'secret' server.

    Second, there is no question that she sought to conceal public records. Routing ALL your email to a private server AT HOME, unknown to those outside of the State Department inner circle, is an attempt at concealment. It has NO OTHER PURPOSE than to allow Hillary to delete what she wishes, and to prevent inspection of her system by those seeking public records. (Unlike Bush's system).

    Last, it is nearly certain that she transmitted classified information over her email network.

    So in her case, it would be a maximum of 3 years at sing-sing, and prohibition from future federal office. If it were found to have classified information, then it would be worse.
    Last edited by maxparrish; 03-14-15 at 03:39 AM.

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    Re: Jeb's Email Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by maxparrish View Post
    As I said, in the list of public records email is NOT specifically mentioned. Everything mentioned is tangible "material". And if you read closely IF a document, letter, papers, or other material (not immaterial emails) etc. are transmitted (e.g. a fax of a paper) they might be a record. However, if an email does not contain 'a document, letter, or other material' then arguably it is not a record.

    And if you read the whole chapter you will see the working definition of a "public record" is of that of tangible materials, and it does not speak to emails, most likely because no one had really thought about the need to be clear. (In the chapter, it speaks of permanent and archival records to be kept in fireproof vaults, record books bound, rebinding processes, physically copying records from the "original book", retention schedules, etc.). The do infer that some kinds records are on electronic record-keeping systems managed by IT (e.g. documents), but that is as close as it gets.
    There is no such thing as a "working definition". That is a made up term designed to confuse the issue. There is a legal definition and it is explicitly and clearly defined in the sentence I quoted. Here is it again, for reference purposes:

    (11) "Public records" means all documents, papers, letters, maps, books, tapes, photographs, films, sound recordings, data processing software, or other material, regardless of the physical form, characteristics, or means of transmission, made or received pursuant to law or ordinance or in connection with the transaction of official business by any agency.
    Note the bolded portion. "OR OTHER MATERIAL regardless of physical form". How you got from "regardless of material form" to "recorded in electronical circuits (as opposed to ink on paper) doesn't count" is a leap Evel Kneival would be proud of.

    Also, I have read the chapter and I've seen that they do not merely "infer" that some records are electronic. They explicitly state that "public records" include information stored in computers:

    119.07 Inspection and copying of records; photographing public records; fees; exemptions
    .
    .
    (2)(a) As an additional means of inspecting or copying public records, a custodian of public records may provide access to public records by remote electronic means, provided exempt or confidential information is not disclosed.

    (b) The custodian of public records shall provide safeguards to protect the contents of public records from unauthorized remote electronic access or alteration and to prevent the disclosure or modification of those portions of public records which are exempt or confidential from subsection (1) or s. 24, Art. I of the State Constitution.

    (c) Unless otherwise required by law, the custodian of public records may charge a fee for remote electronic access, granted under a contractual arrangement with a user, which fee may include the direct and indirect costs of providing such access. Fees for remote electronic access provided to the general public shall be in accordance with the provisions of this section.
    the law CLEARLY covers documents (including letters) that are stored electronically.
    Except that it is not clear that under 2007 that an email, which is an immaterial (not "other material") thing is a public record - not unless it actually contains a document, letter, etc. connected to official business. In other words, an email that says "Keep me posted on the progress of project Y" is not likely a public record in 2007 (or before). Whereas, the attachment of a document (e.g. a contract), would be. Of course if it had a document attached, it would almost certainly be filed in hard copy at the time of its creation and printing.
    This is just a rewording of your previous argument that emails aren't covered even though the legal definition of "public records" clearly apply to emails.

    First, under Florida law you must prove there was willful and intentional violation of the Chapter. When the law is silent on emails as a public record, it is near impossible to prove there was anything subject to illegal concealment.
    And again.

    Second, publicly touting that to the Florida public that you (Bush) have your own server in State offices, and public email addresses, while also using the State system for official business, is not going to sell a plot "concealment" narrative to a jury.

    Three, to my knowledge there is no FOIA requests or legal investigations that were impeded because "public records" were concealed by Bush. And there has been no complaints or need to 'negotiate' with the State archivist...he did so on his own initiative.

    Of course, if unintended he is still subject to a civil fine of 500 dollars. (LOL).
    Because he did not follow the law, but that's OK because it's different when he does it.
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    Re: Jeb's Email Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by maxparrish View Post
    If Hillary is Hillary, she will have stuff erased. Then IT folks will find evidence of extraordinary efforts to obliterate data, far beyond that of simple deletion. Then the the controversy will start all over again.

    Either that, or like Lerner and her folks, she will have "crashes" that she will say required her to take the server to a landfill...but she can't remember where. (She has a problem with her memory, if you remember the "I don't recall" Hillary testimony in the 1990s.
    So did Reagan.
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    Re: Jeb's Email Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Yes, it's perfectly OK for a Bush to ignore the law.

    It's only wrong when a Clinton or an Obama does it
    Nope...its not. Not at all. Did Bush violate a state law? If so...he should be considered as unelectable as Hillary.

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    Re: Jeb's Email Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Nope...its not. Not at all. Did Bush violate a state law? If so...he should be considered as unelectable as Hillary.
    He should be unelectable anyway, but given the fact that the GOP is so short on talent these days, they can only pick their presidents from one family I suppose we may be stuck. I don't know if Jeb violated any law or not. But he should have. I mean, all government employees should be issued .gov addresses, and prosecuted if they conduct any official business on personal accounts. Are you ok with Bush being the one to decide which of his quarter million emails are worthy of scrutiny and archiving.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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