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Two Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station[W:263]

Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

Montecresto said:
Do you realize that the justice department employs 125,000 people. Many of whom were there before Holder arrived, and who will be there after he departs. Do you have any idea how many people were actively involved in this investigation, and whether or not any of them had met Holder prior to this assignment. Are you suggesting the documented crimes in this report are fabrications. That the JD employees fabricated racist e-mails, that the documented violations of the first, fourth and fourteenth amendments are also fabrications. That the documented witness accounts were created by justice department employees. Is that where clownboy stands??
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Hmmm, manufacture a strawman and then ask if I'm willing to stand with it. You're joking, right?

I think Holder was directed to have the report made and for it to be weighted in a certain way. Holder orders his department heads and the troops supply the data. Omissions and commissions, deciding what to cut and what to keep.
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

sawdust said:
No, there may be racism in Ferguson's department. There may be racism in every police department but I don't believe it's pervasive.
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There's no "maybe" about it. The DoJ documented pervasive discrimination in the criminal justice system in Ferguson but I recognize that you won't accept any argument, no matter how sound.

it fits in with your refusal to read the report.

I think if you look hard and long enough you'll find it everywhere but on balance it's minimal. I don't believe that racism in Ferguson is systemic.
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I think you're trying everything you can to not look at the facts, beginning with not reading the report. It's absurd to render such opinions while refusing to consider the facts.
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

Fearandloathing said:
Frankly, reading this you see it transcends the politics. It is not even so much a ace issue as it is corruption.

If anyone should ask which came first, the crime in that area that needed tough policing, or the over-the-top policing causing the push back, I would say yes. And at this point, it is time to let go of legitimate beefs on Holder, and focus on the fact Americans are dying and suffering needlessly at the hands of other Americans. That's just wrong and it has to stop.
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I agree that the issue transcends politics but reading this thread shows that many people can't do the same.
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

clownboy said:
Hmmm, manufacture a strawman and then ask if I'm willing to stand with it. You're joking, right?

I think Holder was directed to have the report made and for it to be weighted in a certain way. Holder orders his department heads and the troops supply the data. Omissions and commissions, deciding what to cut and what to keep.
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Your assertions that Holder is corrupt, therefore the 125,000 person justice department team is corrupt is baseless, your strawman. Look here, racism, lawlessness and police as well as court corruption have been documented in a report that rubs your nose in something you don't like. Of course your going to dismiss it. But go right ahead, it won't matter. The FPD won't be able to do that!
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

VanceMack said:
Seeing the word 'many' in a report does nothing to quantify a statement that racism is prevalent. Juts how many were sent? Who sent them? Are they still employed? No doubt...the 7 emails cited in seven years were racist and should have resulted in at least a reprimand...but you need more to go on than several, and many.
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The report documents many other instances of racial discrimination including policies that are unconstitutional that have been used against hundreds of black people in Ferguson.

But you keep counting emails. If you spend enough time doing that, you'll have a great excuse for not reading the report (ie "I'm too busy")
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

JasperL said:
I'll just quote liveonramen: "There's been multiple cases of black men being killed in various cities that were really unarmed and not threatening a police officer...since the Michael Brown shooting. Why do you think Ferguson has erupted like it has? The Michael Brown incident is an example of a flame setting of a tinderbox."

Seriously, if you can't recognize that what happened after the Brown shooting was only the spark, then you've entirely missed the real point of all the protests. It's not as if the protesters didn't say early on WHY the reaction was so explosive. I heard and read a number of interviews with those in the community and the story was always the same - the shooting was merely the last straw. To be fair, the national media is lazy and doesn't do nuance very well because it's all got to fit into a sound bite of 90 seconds or so, and so they focused almost entirely on the shooting, but the people doing actual reporting from that area had the story right long ago, and nothing in the report should be a surprise to any of them.
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Oh, I know what you are saying, for sure. I remember the first report I saw on TV, from CBS, to the effect of "Cop shoots and kills unarmed teen". I thought, holy crap, that sounds pretty bad. Obviously, they had almost no information, but decided to go with an untruthful, incendiary line that was completely biased and contributed to the violence that ensued. But what happened later with Sharpton, Holder, and Obama was worse. They had more information, and decided to do what was in their best political interests, and screw the truth. Disgraceful behavior.
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

Anthony60 said:
Oh, I know what you are saying, for sure. I remember the first report I saw on TV, from CBS, to the effect of "Cop shoots and kills unarmed teen". I thought, holy crap, that sounds pretty bad. Obviously, they had almost no information, but decided to go with an untruthful, incendiary line that was completely biased and contributed to the violence that ensued. But what happened later with Sharpton, Holder, and Obama was worse. They had more information, and decided to do what was in their best political interests, and screw the truth. Disgraceful behavior.
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Someone probably mentioned this earlier but Barack Obama talking Ferguson at the UN may have been the most foolish act in a presidency filled with foolishness. It certainly inflated the notion among some that they were valid in looting, damaging property and then finally attacking the police.

It's going well beyond being a bad President now and into whether this guy is actually very intelligent.
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

Montecresto said:
Holder does know who they are. And they should be fired! Not transferred to subject more citizens to their racism. And who said that rooting out the racism in the Ferguson police department will cure all that ails the world?
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So Holder should have them fired. What's he waiting for?

Rooting out the racism in Ferguson will cure what ails Ferguson. Nobody mentioned all of the ails of the world that I'm aware of.
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

Montecresto said:
Trivialize the racist e-mails all you want. You're also not factoring in how many people these filthy e-mails were sent to who had themselves a good laugh as well, and failed to report them. The racism problem in the FPD is bigger than the tip you see. Read the JD's report, instead of speaking from ignorance and appearing to be a racist yourself!
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Wow. You're not usually prone to posts that are filled with this much hysteria. I said that 7 emails dating back 4 years isn't indicative of much. It isn't. Where are the rest of these filthy emails? And who are these people who had good laughs when they got them? I'm sure that's in the report too. Are they being charged with something? Because if they aren't, and they aren't in the PD, who cares about them in this thread. I don't.

I did read the report. I didn't memorize it word for word. You pasted those emails here. There must be hundreds of them or more recent ones that you can share. Um, not memorizing emails sent by a police department that's about 2000 miles from where I live doesn't make me a racist.
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

Peter King said:
But that is for the people/politicians in Ferguson to solve, not Holder. He has investigated the shooting of Brown (and found the officer was not in the wrong) and investigated the police force of Ferguson and found loads wrong there.

And this is not just changing out a few police officers, this is endemic and needs a full overhaul from politicians, police chiefs, etc. before this problem is going to start to get better. And even then it will take years before the police has regained the trust of the community.
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Oh. So what are the people/politicians of Ferguson waiting for?
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

tres borrachos said:
Oh. So what are the people/politicians of Ferguson waiting for?
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You tell me? Maybe the police has been such a money maker that the politicians do not have the willingness to change the police force.
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

sangha said:
The report documents many other instances of racial discrimination including policies that are unconstitutional that have been used against hundreds of black people in Ferguson.

But you keep counting emails. If you spend enough time doing that, you'll have a great excuse for not reading the report (ie "I'm too busy")
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ANd I have said...some of them actually look credible. Problems? Sure...I bet they have them. Systemic racism? Well...you see what you want to see. But then...a lot of people still see Mike Brown as a poor widdle victim as well.
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

clownboy said:
That's nice, but you are aware that Holder is the only sitting member of the President's cabinet in all our history to be held in CRIMINAL contempt by congress. The news that he and his department are corrupt broke long enough ago that you have no excuse for defending them or buying their bull****.
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For those with jerky knees, no excuse is needed. ;)
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

Fearandloathing said:
Frankly, reading this you see it transcends the politics. It is not even so much a ace issue as it is corruption.

If anyone should ask which came first, the crime in that area that needed tough policing, or the over-the-top policing causing the push back, I would say yes. And at this point, it is time to let go of legitimate beefs on Holder, and focus on the fact Americans are dying and suffering needlessly at the hands of other Americans. That's just wrong and it has to stop.
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Kinda the point. Less incitation, fewer people killed and less property destruction. But I agree with you, paramount is the reduction in the violence and killing or attempted killing in this case.
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

VanceMack said:
Seeing the word 'many' in a report does nothing to quantify a statement that racism is prevalent. Juts how many were sent? Who sent them? Are they still employed? No doubt...the 7 emails cited in seven years were racist and should have resulted in at least a reprimand...but you need more to go on than several, and many.
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Careful. When I said that earlier today, it caused a poster to start a barrage of hyper hysterical posts.

7 emails in 7 years....and the most recent being 2011. Let's see some from 2015. Hell, 2014 would work. And if 7 emails in 7 years is enough to tell this country everything needed to condemn this entire force as being corrupt, racist people, I wonder what we would have seen in the many thousands of emails that a certain Secretary of State deleted and is holding captive in her server.

I'm sure there are bad seeds in the police force. I'm sure there are bad seeds in my town's police force. But the notion that the root cause of the crime in Ferguson is the PD, and they're sharing 7 emails as an example of that....and people are just bobbing their heads in agreement....damn mystifying.
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

Hatuey said:
She doesn't agree with these being deaths, because factually they aren't. However, she agrees that this is Holder's fault... which somehow will not be blaming Holder for this. :lol: The acrobatics are real.
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sangha said:
And predictable

At some point, she will accuse someone of getting emotional (or obssessing)
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tres borrachos said:
Wow. You're not usually prone to posts that are filled with this much hysteria.
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tres borrachos said:
Careful. When I said that earlier today, it caused a poster to start a barrage of hyper hysterical posts.
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as predicted
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

Peter King said:
You tell me? Maybe the police has been such a money maker that the politicians do not have the willingness to change the police force.
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I can't tell you. I don't live there, and I'm not the one declaring that the current police force is terrible and has to go. The local politicians there are all Democrats. Maybe they can say.
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

The thing we're seeing here isn't some pathetic display of partisan politics (though this thread certainly is a display of that), but of an immense problem that has existed for decades now and is beginning to explode. The way we use our police, the way we exercise government force against the rights and liberties of the citizens, is being questioned. We've already seen the reports showing that police departments are used as city fundraisers, and we know from incident after incident the willingness of government to use deadly force against its own people.

What we need is to return to sense and sensibility. Government is necessary, policing is necessary, we cannot resort to more violence and killing of our own. But we need to get government force into proper proportion and we need to start investigating more reliable less-than-lethal weapons that our police can use against civilians.

The total goal should be a higher level of mutual respect and courtesy.
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

Grant said:
Someone probably mentioned this earlier but Barack Obama talking Ferguson at the UN may have been the most foolish act in a presidency filled with foolishness. It certainly inflated the notion among some that they were valid in looting, damaging property and then finally attacking the police.

It's going well beyond being a bad President now and into whether this guy is actually very intelligent.
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Yes, that was an absolute disgrace, doing that to our country as President. One of the lowest points ever for the office.
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

Grant said:
Someone probably mentioned this earlier but Barack Obama talking Ferguson at the UN may have been the most foolish act in a presidency filled with foolishness. It certainly inflated the notion among some that they were valid in looting, damaging property and then finally attacking the police.

It's going well beyond being a bad President now and into whether this guy is actually very intelligent.
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Obama talked about Ferguson at the UN? If i knew that, I forgot about it. What was the reason he did that?
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

Anthony60 said:
Yes, that was an absolute disgrace, doing that to our country as President. One of the lowest points ever for the office.
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Liberals do that stuff. They knew that Wilson's was a good-shoot long before they paraded the Browns in front of the UN. But, they did it anyway. Pushing big bad white people narrative, damn the evidence, is like a disease with them.
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

To a swathe of society it appeared as if Ferguson police officers got away with murder. Perhaps someone else thought they could do the same. Violence breeds violence.
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

Andalublue said:
To a swathe of society it appeared as if Ferguson police officers got away with murder. Perhaps someone else thought they could do the same. Violence breeds violence.
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Then that " swathe of society " is filled with a bunch of morons if they still think Michael Brown was murdered with his " hands up " in surrender.
 
Re: 2 Officers Are Shot Outside Ferguson Police Station

sangha said:
I agree that the issue transcends politics but reading this thread shows that many people can't do the same.
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I agree, and the best way to change minds is to set an example. I have been saying in one way or another since my first post that the focus needs to be the fix and it appears a growing number of people agree. Arguing the same old "...the right is" and "...lefties this", which we all enjoy, don't get me wrong, but are pointless and irrelevant here.

We've had riots too. Not long ago millions of $ worth of damage was done in fires and looting because a band of spoiled privileged kids couldn't accept the outcome of game seven of the Stanley cup......

There was some bleating that "the police should have...." and "...they shouldn't have allowed street parties" but it faded when the horror of what had happened and how the reputation of our "world class city" status had been badly bruised. The the same Police Chief who was the bad guy for being too lax, Chief Constable Jim Chew, appealed to the public to go on line and view the hundreds of videos and pictures they had of the rioters so they could identify them and bring them to justice.

That is not to brag, but offer an example of humility instead instead of blame, and how to fix what's broken. A dysfunction family argues over the same problems again and again, a 'normal' family argues about one problem after another.....
 
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