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Thread: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership [W:251]

  1. #131
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    Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    It's not wrong, legally, although you may disagree with the action or the motive as you perceive it. That just makes it controversial, which I agree it is. The Republicans in the Senate who signed the letter, however, aren't the only people who want to see more out of these negotiations and if that undermines Obama's weak position, so be it.

    As for the sanctions - we agree - which should also enforce that the Senate Republicans are right and if Obama is in any way promising that all US sanctions will be dropped, the Iranians are wise to be wary that the US, through Obama, isn't trustworthy. It's not unlike Obama to promise something he knows is literally false and not his to grant.
    It is wrong. There's a reason the Logan Act was passed...because dealing with foreign countries isn't like a domestic squabble over domestic legislation. There's one voice and one main branch....the Executive Branch. The Senate ratifies long term treaties and Congress declares wars...two of the most extreme foreign actions the country takes...but the President is in charge of foreign policy.

    Republicans have this idea in their head that if they don't like the President they can pretend he doesn't exist and undermine him at every opportunity. The fact is, what they've done is pretty much push away Democrats that may of sided with them because they've turned foreign policy into a partisan affair. Once again though...the Republicans have opened a door so don't be surprised when Democrats walk through it in the future. The amount of bitching and complaining due to the ACA going through the reconciliation process is actually pretty satisfying since the budget busting Bush tax cuts were passed that way. You reap what you sow. A large part of American politics is about norms...and Republicans have thrown all norms aside...from govt shutdowns to abusing reconciliation to undermining the President to rampant use of the filibuster. Those all have consequences...
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    The Logan Act clearly doesn't prevent congress from acting on their authority. However the founding fathers, (ie the people who passed the Logan Act) made it clear that negotiations with other governments can only be carried out by the executive branch. In fact the Logan act was passed by Federalists in response to Republicans conducting back door communication with the French government. Your point isn't without merit and would certainly come up during any prosecution, but it's far from an obvious conclusion. If anything, because they did not inform the administration in any way before they sent this letter, it's likely that the senators were not acting on behalf of the US government.
    there will be no prosecutions or even charges... as I said, by definition, US senators actin on their authority are exempt from this act... that's been long settled.


    any consequences these Senators feel will be political.... there will be no criminal charges.

    additionally, Republicans did not exist at the time of the Logan act.... Logan was, in fact, a Democratic-Republican.

    Logan was a state legislator when he acted... ergo, he had no authority of the United States to act on...US senators, by definition, have that authority

  3. #133
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    Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

    To their credit (kind of) conservatives here know that congress screwed up big, which is why they're trying incessantly to deflect their action by saying, "But...Obama hasn't earned our trust!" as if that had any bearing on scuttling a crucial deal to prevent an unfriendly country from attaining the bomb and thus destabilizing the region even more. Rest assured, Iran will walk out of the negotiations now, they'll get the bomb, and Republicans will own it. The conservatives here know deep down that the Republicans ****ed up royally, and that this is something they never would have supported until Obama became their only reason for living and fighting.

    This has gone far beyond "derangement" and has now officially escalated to full blown sickness.

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    Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    It is wrong. There's a reason the Logan Act was passed...because dealing with foreign countries isn't like a domestic squabble over domestic legislation. There's one voice and one main branch....the Executive Branch. The Senate ratifies long term treaties and Congress declares wars...two of the most extreme foreign actions the country takes...but the President is in charge of foreign policy.

    Republicans have this idea in their head that if they don't like the President they can pretend he doesn't exist and undermine him at every opportunity. The fact is, what they've done is pretty much push away Democrats that may of sided with them because they've turned foreign policy into a partisan affair. Once again though...the Republicans have opened a door so don't be surprised when Democrats walk through it in the future. The amount of bitching and complaining due to the ACA going through the reconciliation process is actually pretty satisfying since the budget busting Bush tax cuts were passed that way. You reap what you sow. A large part of American politics is about norms...and Republicans have thrown all norms aside...from govt shutdowns to abusing reconciliation to undermining the President to rampant use of the filibuster. Those all have consequences...
    <sigh> the Logan act does not pertain to sitting US Senators.... it can't.

    reaping an sowing is what this is all about, absolutely ... but both sides are reaping and sowing, not just one.
    none of this stuff happen in a vacuum, despite what partisan hacks would lead us to believe.

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    Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    nope... you're wrong.

    the phrase "without authority of the United States" screws up your entire Logan act argument.

    sitting Senators , by definition, are exempt from this act
    Senators do not have the "authority of the United States" to conduct diplomacy. If that's the case, a majority party in the Senate could conduct it's own foreign policy separate from the President....the role of Senate is to advise and consent in regards to foreign policy. The Executive Branch conducts foreign policy..has always been that way and still is.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    To their credit (kind of) conservatives here know that congress screwed up big, which is why they're trying incessantly to deflect their action by saying, "But...Obama hasn't earned our trust!" as if that had any bearing on scuttling a crucial deal to prevent an unfriendly country from attaining the bomb and thus destabilizing the region even more. Rest assured, Iran will walk out of the negotiations now, they'll get the bomb, and Republicans will own it. The conservatives here know deep down that the Republicans ****ed up royally.
    that depends on if they walk and.. and why.

    it incredibly premature and hackish to declare it's all the Republicans fault, but we understand why you would do it.

    I doubt this will amount to much myself...in terms of the negotiations... if it does, it might be beneficial
    it looks now like Obama is allied with the Iranians against the Senators, so he might have some success due to the GOP's letter <shrug>

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    Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Senators do not have the "authority of the United States" to conduct diplomacy. If that's the case, a majority party in the Senate could conduct it's own foreign policy separate from the President....the role of Senate is to advise and consent in regards to foreign policy. The Executive Branch conducts foreign policy..has always been that way and still is.
    from the State dept.. 1975.. read it slowly.
    The clear intent of this provision [Logan Act] is to prohibit unauthorized persons from intervening in disputes between the United States and foreign governments. Nothing in section 953 [Logan Act], however, would appear to restrict members of the Congress from engaging in discussions with foreign officials in pursuance of their legislative duties under the Constitution.
    wake me when the prosecutions begin....

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    Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    that depends on if they walk and.. and why.

    it incredibly premature and hackish to declare it's all the Republicans fault, but we understand why you would do it.

    I doubt this will amount to much myself...in terms of the negotiations... if it does, it might be beneficial
    it looks now like Obama is allied with the Iranians against the Senators, so he might have some success due to the GOP's letter <shrug>
    No, it's rare that I get to say this so definitively, but yeah, if the Iranians walk out on negotiations now (and I honestly can't see any reason why they wouldn't at this point), it's all Republicans' fault. All of it. You know this, I suspect, which is why you've adopted the attitude that this is all some hilarious and delightful game created for your personal amusement, and not a serious international negotiation on keeping a nuclear bomb out of an unfriendly country's hands.

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    Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    there will be no prosecutions or even charges... as I said, by definition, US senators actin on their authority are exempt from this act... that's been long settled.


    any consequences these Senators feel will be political.... there will be no criminal charges.

    additionally, Republicans did not exist at the time of the Logan act.... Logan was, in fact, a Democratic-Republican.

    Logan was a state legislator when he acted... ergo, he had no authority of the United States to act on...US senators, by definition, have that authority
    Long settled by what? Do you have a case? You can't just say that US senators by definition have that authority and then not be able to provide any sources for that authority. That's just sticking your fingers in your ear and screaming that you're right.

    All official correspondence between the US government and other governments either comes out of the White House or the State Department. The Senate can't even appoint an ambassador. In previous cases it was deemed that the Congressmen involved were allowed to carry out communication with foreign leaders as part of their official duties as a lawmaker, provided that communication was not in conflict with ongoing official negotiations.

    I was also going to point out that the Republicans were not the same Republicans of today, but I thought that the mention of Federalist opposition would suffice. It's quite accepted to refer to Jefferson’s party as Republicans.
    History of the Federal Judiciary

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    Re: Obama Blasts Republicans Over Letter to Iranian Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrilla View Post
    from the State dept.. 1975.. read it slowly.


    wake me when the prosecutions begin....
    And which legislative duty is this?

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