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Thread: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

  1. #431
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    1) I don't agree with them being expelled.
    2) Public accountability for offensive speech is a good thing, IMO.

    Given the choice of 1) or 2), 2) is more consistent with the concept of freedom of speech and the rights and responsibilities that come with that. I'm not even arguing that whatever their ultimate punishment will be matches the severity of their 'crime' - that's impossible to judge, and it will vary from person to person. I'm sure my opinions as a white, Christian, straight, male in the South who has never in his life been disadvantaged by the color of his skin or his religion or his sex or sexual orientation might be entirely different than some black kid who went through rush at OU and was blackballed for the color of his skin.

    But as a principle, the general rule, I'm for public accountability for this kind of speech. They're free to say what they want, and the public is free to condemn them for it. I don't know how else this delicate balancing act of rights and responsibilities can work.
    She thinks they should be held accountable, but only up to the point the she believes they should be accountable.

    If it ever goes beyond her opinion, it's a travesty!!
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Yes, what I'm saying is I don't think these dumbs kids should necessarily be public targets (checking to make sure the l is in there.....). Yes, I think being expelled was punishment enough. It will stay with them forever. What other punishment do you think they deserve, and for how long?
    I agree, they took a lot of punishment but then again, they did bring this unto themselves.

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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    All of those incidents presented in this thread don't lie. You can continue to ignore them and keep claiming it's "only 3" but others have posted more incidents that you've ignored. As for your demands of evidence, what has been stated is that the promotion of these views isn't written down on paper (see: not visible to the public). However, it's clear that they're there and across more than one chapter of the fraternity. Hell, if you needed something written down to prove something is racist, Donald Sterling would still be thought of as a non racist for hiring an entire team of black people and paying them millions.
    No, it's not "clear that they're there". Just stop. That's in your head and yours alone.
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    No, it's not "clear that they're there". Just stop. That's in your head and yours alone.
    Denying what's obvious to so many other people really makes you look terrible. Closing your eyes and covering your ears won't change that either. Remember, various incidents, various chapters and your contention is that there is no obvious pattern within this organization. It's all... a mere coincidence.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    I forgot the gentleman's name, but in addition to kind of promoting his book (titled something to the effect of "Confessions of an ex-frat boy"), as a former member of that national fraternity had argued that the melody had been used for all manner of songs racist or sexist. He said he hadn't heard one this explicit until the OK video, but it was an issue, both in terms of songs and in terms of social atmosphere.

    I think that this is an issue, but not something that is evenly spread throughout the country or any given chapter. It is probably there, but depends on the individual membership of a chapter.
    Hey Fiddy, you're talking about the Andrew Lohse book "Confessions of an Ivy League Frat Boy" that came out a few years ago. He was an SAE at Dartmouth. I know the book/story well because I live in NH and it was big news when it came out. It was also proven to be 99% bull****. He said things in the book that supposedly go on in the Greek system at Dartmouth (which I believe something like 65% of the students are members of) that are illegal, prompting the NH police to get involved and launch official investigations. There was not a single person who corroborated his stories - not one. He's making an "anti-Greek" career and it's all based on falsehoods. But in his book, which I actually read, he never mentioned any racism in SAE. He blamed SAE (and the Greek system in general) for his drug problem that almost killed him. And he accused the Greeks of hazing (which is illegal). If there was any truth to his tales, there would have been at least 1 other person who attended Dartmouth who would corroborate - and nobody did.

    You can Google all this. But anything he would have to say - good or bad - would be discounted anyway since almost his entire story was a lie.
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Denying what's obvious to so many other people really makes you look terrible. Closing your eyes and covering your ears won't change that either. Remember, various incidents, various chapters and your contention is that there is no obvious pattern within this organization. It's all... a mere coincidence.
    You've decided that SAE national promotes racism because of the actions of a handful of people. Let's take the Greek system (which you know nothing about) out of the discussion then. You tell me which of these statements is obviously true, and why - I'll use similar numbers and examples that you can relate to presumably.

    Mr. Smith is the principal of a school with 300 students. 47 of the students smoke pot. Mr. Smith promotes pot smoking.
    Mr. Jones teaches science. He has 300 students among his 4 classes. 26 students have gotten drunk. Mr. Jones promotes underage drinking.
    Linda is the manager of a girls recreation soccer league. There are 300 girls in the league. 22 of them are having unprotected sex with their boyfriends. Linda promotes unprotected sex.
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    You've decided that SAE national promotes racism because of the actions of a handful of people.
    Repeating this claim just makes you look dishonest. It's quite a few chapters over quite a few states with quite a few people involved. Your contention is that these are all unrelated and not a reflection of the organization as a whole. However, we know that's not true because all of these people were acting within their official roles. Continuing to deny that is why you've lost this debate and were reduced to trying to misrepresent my posts for 3 pages.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Repeating this claim just makes you look dishonest. It's quite a few chapters over quite a few states with quite a few people involved. Your contention is that these are all unrelated and not a reflection of the organization as a whole. However, we know that's not true because all of these people were acting within their official roles. Continuing to deny that is why you've lost this debate and were reduced to trying to misrepresent my posts for 3 pages.
    Why didn't you tell me which of those statements were correct? If you can tie "leadership" of a group of young people to their actions, and assume that the leadership promotes bad behavior because a few commit it, you surely can explain why you can assume any of those statements I posted are correct. Please do it. Don't snip them out of your response.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Why didn't you tell me which of those statements were correct? If you can tie "leadership" of a group of young people to their actions, and assume that the leadership promotes bad behavior because a few commit it, you surely can explain why you can assume any of those statements I posted are correct. Please do it. Don't snip them out of your response.
    None of them because in none of these cases are these students acting as students. Every single person in these instances was acting as a member of SAE. That you don't get this yet is really why you have no case. There is no question that Democratic party promoted racism in the 1960s because every Democrat who voted against desegregation did so as a part of their official party membership. Their membership isn't incidental to the story, it's central to it. What part of this point don't you get this yet? This isn't like a person killing someone and then the fact that they're religious being used to explain their actions. This is a person carrying out actions because it's perfectly acceptable within the group that they're in. It's people carrying out activities because their role demands it. This is proven by the fact that pledges needed to perform racist actions as part of their initiation. This is proven by the fact that when those kids were chanting they weren't alone; other members were chanting right along with them. Again, it's when a person understands that these things don't happen in vacuum that one realizes that it's the organization and not a bunch of unrelated stories.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 03-12-15 at 10:31 AM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    None of them because in none of these cases are these students acting as students. Every single person in these instances was acting as a member of SAE. That you don't get this yet is really why you have no case. There is no question that Democratic party promoted racism in the 1960s because every Democrat who voted against desegregation did so as a part of their official party membership. Their membership isn't incidental to the story, it's central to it. What part of this point don't you get this yet? This isn't like a person killing someone and then the fact that they're religious being used as the reason for their actions. This is a person carrying their actions because it's perfectly acceptable within the group that they're in.
    Students acting as students? I didn't know that smoking pot qualifies as "acting as a student". But riding on a bus is a "member of SAE activity". Oh I've read it all.

    In other words, my examples prove you are wrong. Thanks!
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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