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Thread: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Yes, what I'm saying is I don't think these dumbs kids should necessarily be public targets (checking to make sure the l is in there.....). Yes, I think being expelled was punishment enough. It will stay with them forever. What other punishment do you think they deserve, and for how long?
    1) I don't agree with them being expelled.
    2) Public accountability for offensive speech is a good thing, IMO.

    Given the choice of 1) or 2), 2) is more consistent with the concept of freedom of speech and the rights and responsibilities that come with that. I'm not even arguing that whatever their ultimate punishment will be matches the severity of their 'crime' - that's impossible to judge, and it will vary from person to person. I'm sure my opinions as a white, Christian, straight, male in the South who has never in his life been disadvantaged by the color of his skin or his religion or his sex or sexual orientation might be entirely different than some black kid who went through rush at OU and was blackballed for the color of his skin.

    But as a principle, the general rule, I'm for public accountability for this kind of speech. They're free to say what they want, and the public is free to condemn them for it. I don't know how else this delicate balancing act of rights and responsibilities can work.

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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    Right, it is what it is NOW. I'm arguing that it isn't right. That it needs to be addressed. That it needs to be changed.

    I live in Chicago in case you haven't seen my locale, I've been being recorded for 10 + years, you're not enlightening me to the facts of the day.

    As for the boys on the bus yes, they did have a right to privacy because they weren't in public they were for all intents and purposes in their car, one big old car. You need a warrant to wiretap a person's car, so yes, there is a reasonable expectation to privacy in your car.
    If you'd like to fight on behalf of the boys in court, go right ahead, but you're gonna have a damn hard time proving the boys had any expectation of privacy.

    You are right, this will have to be addressed, as do MANY other subjects, such as commercial drone use, advances in 3D printing, commercial medical applications etc.

    The advances in technology at this time are far outstripping legislative ability to keep up and that gap is only likely to get larger.

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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    1) I don't agree with them being expelled.
    2) Public accountability for offensive speech is a good thing, IMO.

    Given the choice of 1) or 2), 2) is more consistent with the concept of freedom of speech and the rights and responsibilities that come with that. I'm not even arguing that whatever their ultimate punishment will be matches the severity of their 'crime' - that's impossible to judge, and it will vary from person to person. I'm sure my opinions as a white, Christian, straight, male in the South who has never in his life been disadvantaged by the color of his skin or his religion or his sex or sexual orientation might be entirely different than some black kid who went through rush at OU and was blackballed for the color of his skin.

    But as a principle, the general rule, I'm for public accountability for this kind of speech. They're free to say what they want, and the public is free to condemn them for it. I don't know how else this delicate balancing act of rights and responsibilities can work.
    I don't agree with them getting expelled either. But that's been done. Suspension would have been good enough. Not letting them participate in sports or clubs. There are a lot of punishments they could have gotten.

    I just think the public is a dangerous animal, especially when it gets emotional.

    I think what I'm saying is I don't know what's to be gained by knowing who they are. This shouldn't follow them forever (which it now will). Having expulsions on their college transcripts are going to hurt them enough. They wouldn't be the first young adults to make mistakes. And what they did wasn't a crime, either.
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    If you'd like to fight on behalf of the boys in court, go right ahead, but you're gonna have a damn hard time proving the boys had any expectation of privacy.

    You are right, this will have to be addressed, as do MANY other subjects, such as commercial drone use, advances in 3D printing, commercial medical applications etc.

    The advances in technology at this time are far outstripping legislative ability to keep up and that gap is only likely to get larger.
    Proving that they had an expectation to privacy wouldn't be the hard part, I think I just proved that, imo. The hard part is getting around the emotional prejudice for the facts to be reviewed and an appropriate judgment being made.

    Right, as with government drone use too, let's not give Big Brother a free ride, eh?

    This is what I'm talking about, and I'm arguing this specifically with this case as an example because there is emotional prejudice involved.

    Relativism in this society has run it amuck.
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    It isn't a private university. It's a public university. As with any other public (government) entity, they're subject to the free speech guarantees of the First Amendment and aren't supposed punish students because they hold offensive views. This has been argued many times in courts.

    Public businesses can't operate how they choose. That's why you can't open a pubic bakery and deny service to a gay couple. Public accommodation laws.
    You're right that this was state action, so that the First Amendment applies through the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth.

    State public accommodation laws are for another debate, but it should be noted that when extended far enough--for example to prohibit discrimination against homosexuals--they raise First Amendment issues too. There are at least three Supreme Court decisions on this subject. The First Amendment protects a right to what the Court calls "expressive association," which figured in these decisions.

    It also protects a right not to speak--i.e. to be free from government-compelled speech--which I think these public accommodation laws might violate in some applications. I suspect that was what the lawyers representing that private wedding chapel in Coeur d'Alene pointed out that caused the town to back down so quickly from trying to force them to perform same-sex weddings. When you try to force a person by law to let his property be used to promote views he disagrees with, there are Supreme Court decisions that suggest you are walking onto pretty shaky ground.

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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by 11Bravo View Post
    Fraternity closes Ole Miss chapter after racial incident - CNN.com

    Sigma PHI Epsilon, otherwise known as "Sig Ep" put a noose around the neck of the statue of James Meredith.

    That's literally worse than what the SAE's said. They actually put a noose around the neck of it.

    There ya go, that's worse :-)
    You're not sure what you're discussing anymore are you? You said this was widespread and happened across the board. I want you to show a fraternity with as racist a history. Not a single racist incident at a single university. Can you do that? Hell, various members here compiled about 10 incidents from SAE alone. Can you do the same with another frat? I doubt it.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Great, and I want evidence that there is racism being promoted out of the national chapter.
    All of those incidents presented in this thread don't lie. You can continue to ignore them and keep claiming it's "only 3" but others have posted more incidents that you've ignored. As for your demands of evidence, what has been stated is that the promotion of these views isn't written down on paper (see: not visible to the public). However, it's clear that they're there and across more than one chapter of the fraternity. Hell, if you needed something written down to prove something is racist, Donald Sterling would still be thought of as a non racist for hiring an entire team of black people and paying them millions.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 03-11-15 at 05:46 PM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Great, and I want evidence that there is racism being promoted out of the national chapter. Show some emails, letters, speeches, notes, books, anything.

    Here's your evidence that he was discussing the national organization. You don't have to wait.



    Read it. If you had any clue about the subject matter you're discussing, you'd be able to comprehend the posts you are responding to. Unbelievable.
    I forgot the gentleman's name, but in addition to kind of promoting his book (titled something to the effect of "Confessions of an ex-frat boy"), as a former member of that national fraternity had argued that the melody had been used for all manner of songs racist or sexist. He said he hadn't heard one this explicit until the OK video, but it was an issue, both in terms of songs and in terms of social atmosphere.

    I think that this is an issue, but not something that is evenly spread throughout the country or any given chapter. It is probably there, but depends on the individual membership of a chapter.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Nope, not obsessing. I just remember his refusal to show any posts where his "centrist" positions came out.
    I just wanted to remind you that I predicted she would say you're getting emotional.
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    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwoman View Post
    At least you admit something, that you brought it up just not to me.


    I guess we are restricted to replying to those who quote us directly. God forbid you quote something someone said to someone else on a public forum!

    Now nobody respond to this later please in a later post. I am responding to tres, not anyone else who may use this later.
    She has a habit of mentioning things and then complaining when someone responds to them

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1063398903
    hat's nice. Thank you for sharing your opinion with me, even though I didn't ask for it.
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    That's what the SCOTUS is going to decide. Your opinion isn't being argued in front of them.
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    Are you Carleen?
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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