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Thread: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Good to know.



    Have you read the thread?
    Some people specialize in not seeing the obvious.
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    I saw 4 instances over a 33 year period in your post,
    3 of those instances which happened in the last 2 years alone. Downplaying it doesn't change that.

    and one of them was about Jewish students (Jewish isn't a race).
    US courts disagree with you.

    3 instances over 33 years leads you to believe that SAE national is promoting racism? SAE has almost 300 active chapters.
    Nope, what leads me to believe it is the nonchalance of the chanting. As if they've done it before. It was something they'd learned. In other words, the members of the fraternity knew the chant. With that said, this wasn't something new or for that matter something strange for the fraternity given their history in other states. All of that evidence points to it being a problem with the organization itself.
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    3 of those instances which happened in the last 2 years alone. Downplaying it doesn't change that.



    US courts disagree with you.



    Nope, what leads me to believe it is the nonchalance of the chanting. As if they've done it before. It was something they'd learned. In other words, the members of the fraternity knew the chant. With that said, this wasn't something new or for that matter something strange for the fraternity given their history in other states. All of that evidence points to it being a problem with the organization itself.
    Jewish is a race?

    So the fact is that 3 local chapters in the last 2 years got caught on video doing/saying something stupid. Now, how does that square with your statement that the national fraternity promotes racism? What are they doing to promote racism, how are they doing it, and how is it that the over 300,000 SAEs have all kept this private and never told anyone about it?

    And you mustn't have ever been a member of a fraternity. The national reps don't come out to campuses (especially almost 300 of them) to teach the brothers how to sign racist songs on buses. Your evidence that the song they sang was provided to them by the national organization is.....what?
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post

    And you mustn't have ever been a member of a fraternity.
    I suspect you have hit upon something here. Being in the Greek system is something that is extremely important to a very small number of people and seems like one of the absolute dumbest things in existence to other people. I went to college for my Bachelors from the fall of 67 until I graduated in 71. In those days, the Greek system was so out of favor and so openly mocked and derided that it withered and faded in many public colleges and only managed to hang on in private schools where the stink of privilege and entitlement unwavered.

    The biggest movie from the era of the Seventies about the Greek system was ANIMAL HOUSE which openly ridiculed the entire process. It made the people who advocated frat life look beyond stupid and just plain out of touch with the changes in college life that the Sixties and Seventies brought.

    So I suspect - besides race - ones response to this story may hinge largely on their opinion of the frat system itself.
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Jewish is a race?
    According to US Courts, hate crime legislation, historians etc. Yes.

    So the fact is that 3 local chapters in the last 2 years got caught on video doing/saying something stupid.
    Yes, it's what happens in the age of mass media. Nothing escapes the eyes of a camera. My belief is that we'll see more of cases as social media becomes a bigger part of everyday life. It's already happening. This is just the iceberg and it's already showing its ugly side across various states.

    Now, how does that square with your statement that the national fraternity promotes racism?
    3 different universities in 3 different states and all they have in common is the fraternity. Doesn't that set off ANY bells for you? It does for me.

    What are they doing to promote racism, how are they doing it, and how is it that the over 300,000 SAEs have all kept this private and never told anyone about it?
    Don't know, I'm not a sociologist. I provided the possibility that it was due to the culture within the organization, and the alternative that it was due to the local culture. Neither makes the organization look particularly good. In the first possibility, it's an internal problem fed by the larger outside culture. In the second possibility, it's the larger outside culture using the motif of fraternities to legitimize their views within a wider academic setting.

    And you mustn't have ever been a member of a fraternity. The national reps don't come out to campuses (especially almost 300 of them) to teach the brothers how to sign racist songs on buses.
    I never said that. That's not the only way information gets passed down. See: oral tradition
    Last edited by Hatuey; 03-10-15 at 12:57 PM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I suspect you have hit upon something here. Being in the Greek system is something that is extremely important to a very small number of people and seems like one of the absolute dumbest things in existence to other people. I went to college for my Bachelors from the fall of 67 until I graduated in 71. In those days, the Greek system was so out of favor and so openly mocked and derided that it withered and faded in many public colleges and only managed to hang on in private schools where the stink of privilege and entitlement unwavered.

    The biggest movie from the era of the Seventies about the Greek system was ANIMAL HOUSE which openly ridiculed the entire process.

    So I suspect - besides race - ones response to this story may hinge largely on their opinion of the frat system itself.
    Animal House came out in 1978, two years before I entered college. I have to admit, when I saw it I was like WTF, is all of that true? It was, in a lot of ways. I was in the Greek system at my college - Greeks were huge. The only people who didn't pledge were either nerdy, odd, or hockey players (they weren't allowed to). I went to a private university.

    There are still a lot of Greeks in the public universities. I think most of the SAE chapters are in public universities.

    There is a lot of good in frats & sororities. There is a lot of bad too, but college aged students can be incredibly stupid, and they don't need to be a member of a Greek house to do it.
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    According to US Courts, hate crime legislation, historians etc. Yes.



    Yes, it's what happens in the age of mass media. Nothing escapes the eyes of a camera. My belief is that we'll see more of cases as social media becomes a bigger part of everyday life. It's already happening. This is just the iceberg and it's already showing its ugly side across various states.



    3 different universities in 3 different states and all they have in common is the fraternity. Doesn't that set off ANY bells for you? It does for me.



    Don't know, I'm not a sociologist. I provided the possibility that it was due to the university, and the alternative that it was due to the local culture. Neither makes the organization look good.



    I never said that. That's not the only way information gets passed down. See: oral tradition
    You are accusing SAE national of promoting racism. You make an accusation like that, you need to back it up, because that is a very serious charge. And if you were a member of a national Greek organization, please tell me which one, and what specific "oral traditions" they passed down that infiltrated every single chapter, and how they did it. I was a Greek and for about 20 years was a local representative helping my sorority set up local chapters. I was also President of the Panhellenic Society of my college, as well as on the board of the Greek council at my school. I never in my time associated with Greeks was aware of any national Greek that promoted racism nor encouraged new members to learn racist songs. I would like to see your proof that SAE did this.
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Animal House came out in 1978, two years before I entered college. I have to admit, when I saw it I was like WTF, is all of that true? It was, in a lot of ways. I was in the Greek system at my college - Greeks were huge. The only people who didn't pledge were either nerdy, odd, or hockey players (they weren't allowed to). I went to a private university.
    yup - that was what I said - on many public university campuses, it was openly mocked and people who favored it were considered the ones out of touch with the times.

    If you entered college in the decade of the 80's, the culture changed and the greek system began to make a return later in the decade.
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    yup - that was what I said - on many public university campuses, it was openly mocked and people who favored it were considered the ones out of touch with the times.

    If you entered college in the decade of the 80's, the culture changed and the greek system began to make a return later in the decade.
    Greeks were big in the 1980s all over the country. Today they're still pretty big, just not as they were when I was in it.

    I got a lot out of being Greek. I actually got my very first job because I listed my Greek on my application and wore my pin to my interview. The hiring person in HR was also a member although she came from a completely different college.
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    You are accusing SAE national of promoting racism.
    The fact that various SAE chapters engage in the same activity supports such an argument. The only other alternative is that the region itself promotes it. However that is unlikely as we're talking about schools separated by 100s of miles.

    You make an accusation like that, you need to back it up, because that is a very serious charge. And if you were a member of a national Greek organization, please tell me which one, and what specific "oral traditions" they passed down that infiltrated every single chapter, and how they did it. I was a Greek and for about 20 years was a local representative helping my sorority set up local chapters. I was also President of the Panhellenic Society of my college, as well as on the board of the Greek council at my school. I never in my time associated with Greeks was aware of any national Greek that promoted racism nor encouraged new members to learn racist songs. I would like to see your proof that SAE did this.
    Nobody cares what you were. What was stated is that oral traditions are ways to pass down songs without necessarily writing it down on any official documents. That's a pretty well known fact. I argue that the same happened here. We have students who chant songs they knew well. Who did they learn them from? Other students. That gives validity to the claim that it's part of the culture. This isn't an event which starts with a generation in the 21st century and in a vacuum; Especially if the organization has supposedly opposed it. It's passed down from one group of students to another. It's part of the SAE culture. Don't like it? Tough nut.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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