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Thread: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

  1. #231
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by ChezC3 View Post
    nder the statute, consent is not required for the taping of a non-electronic communication uttered by a person who does not have a reasonable expectation of privacy in that communication. Okla. Stat. tit. 176.2.

    I would argue they do have a reasonable expectation of privacy in this regard.

    Again, this is a fraternity which is secretive by its very nature. All the persons present were members, or guests of members, and it can easily be understood that such language and wording wouldn't be expressed publicly -- Which is where the reasonable expectation of privacy would come into play.

    But thanks for finding the law, I didn't know, as my OP stated....
    I don't know what Oklahomas case law is regarding expectation of privacy , but in Washington courts have ruled a very narrow definition of private conversation. In one case a court up here ruled a conversation was not private, if you reasonably expected that person to tell someone else.

    Also with the recorder being present on the bus, he was arguably a party to the conversation. That's the one party consent rule applies. If you and I were having a conversation, and Lursa was in the room with us watching, even she never says a word she is a party to that convo.

    To show eavsdropping is rather difficult if the recorder was physically present and you knew s/he was there
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  2. #232
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    No need to apologize--I find your contrived denials intellectually lazy. I don't need to invent faux liberals, because they can be found all over--including on sites like this one. Your attempt to deny that they are an identifiable group that commonly disdains the First Amendment is about as convincing as claiming they don't commonly disdain the Second. When they are not busy attacking religious freedoms, or promoting restrictive speech codes, or lauding state public accommodations laws that insult the freedoms of association and expressive speech in the name of homosexual rights, so-called liberals are attacking the right to keep and bear arms. All you do by defending these intolerant, undemocratic people is suggest you are sympathetic to them. The true liberals in this country today are the people commonly called--inaccurately--"conservatives."
    All you're doing is asserting that anyone who disagrees with your (far right wing) interpretation of the Constitution, which supposedly allows an unfettered 'right' to privately discriminate, has a disdain for the 1st Amendment, and is a "nasty, intolerant, little prigs." What's more likely is we disagree on the merits of various positions related to First Amendment rights and when they can be exercised on the public arena, such as by a business.

    And the "liberal" position on the 2nd Amendment was pretty much the national position, including the position of noted "liberals" like Ronald Reagan, for most of this country's history. Now that the far right wing has interpreted the 2nd Amendment to mean that there are essentially NO legitimate curbs on the ability to keep and bear arms doesn't mean that any other view is illegitimate, just that it differs from your own.

    It was the "conservatives" in my area of the country who opposed a Mosque being built, and who argued Islam isn't actually a religion and so deserves no 1st amendment protections. It's "conservatives" who are happy to make consensual sex between adults a felony if the "nasty intolerant little prigs" don't agree with that kind of sex. It's "conservatives" who want to impose their view of marriage on the rest of the country by Constitutionally prohibiting extending rights to same sex couples, etc. So there isn't any monopoly on "nasty intolerant little prigs" in any one side of the political aisle.

    The many thousands of comments I have read by people who claim to be liberals have taught me to assume they are the very opposite, until they provide evidence they are not. As they reveal their views, they usually show my initial assumption about their true colors was correct. I have seen exceptions, but only seldom.
    Yeah, OK, well, I also assume that "conservatives" are a bunch of white sheeted KKK sympathizers until proven otherwise. States rights is nearly always cover for racist and discriminatory policies. I have seen exceptions but only seldom....

    See, this inventing stereotypes and attributing negative attributes indiscriminately to anyone with an opposing viewpoint is easy!!

    I see someone printed the university's conduct code, as if the simple fact a state law or regulation existed were proof of its constitutionality. But thousands of such laws and regulations have been struck down as unconstitutional. I don't say this one is, but the Supreme Court protects the freedom of speech about as strongly as anything in the Constitution. Having a free country means letting people say hateful and repugnant things--in fact the Court has observed that it is exactly the most unpopular speech that calls for the greatest protection. In this country, we don't rush to the rescue every time some delicate flower points his finger and wails, through his tears, that the bad man said mean things that made him feel all icky. The world is not a kindergarten, however much faux liberals would like to make it one.
    First of all, my original point was perhaps you should take the thing about conduct codes up with the person who posted them, or those who agreed they should apply in this case instead of throwing hand grenades in a drive by post that slurs all "liberals." I don't believe society should "ride to the rescue" every time an idiot racist opens his idiot, racist trap, but it's perfectly fine to publicly condemn such racism and for their to be serious consequences for uttering that kind of nonsense. I don't think they should be expelled, however. So it's possible to condemn racist chants, publicly shame those who participated, but support their 'right' to be idiot racists without the state supported university expelling them for their views. College is IMO a time when such views should be MOST tolerated.

    And instead of having an honest debate, you decided to throw grenades.

  3. #233
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Animal House came out in 1978, two years before I entered college. I have to admit, when I saw it I was like WTF, is all of that true? It was, in a lot of ways. I was in the Greek system at my college - Greeks were huge. The only people who didn't pledge were either nerdy, odd, or hockey players (they weren't allowed to). I went to a private university.

    There are still a lot of Greeks in the public universities. I think most of the SAE chapters are in public universities.

    There is a lot of good in frats & sororities.
    There is a lot of bad too,
    but college aged students can be incredibly stupid, and they don't need to be a member of a Greek house to do it.


    This incident is ample proof of that.

  4. #234
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    The fact that various SAE chapters engage in the same activity supports such an argument. The only other alternative is that the region itself promotes it. However that is unlikely as we're talking about schools separated by 100s of miles.



    Nobody cares what you were. What was stated is that oral traditions are ways to pass down songs without necessarily writing it down on any official documents. That's a pretty well known fact. I argue that the same happened here. We have students who chant songs they knew well. Who did they learn them from? Other students. That gives validity to the claim that it's part of the culture. This isn't an event which starts with a generation in the 21st century and in a vacuum; Especially if the organization has supposedly opposed it. It's passed down from one group of students to another.
    It's part of the SAE culture.
    Don't like it? Tough nut.


    SAE was founded at the University of Alabama before the Civil War. Think about that a little bit.

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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    I would argue the university is an arm of the government.....

    The other thing, is that the definition of racist has been so loose and to the point where anyone qualifies as racist. It's like that Seattle police woman, who gotten trouble for stopping the black man with the golf club, and the Seattle stranger dug up a post from that officer about ferguson and said it was racist posting, except the Facebook posting question, was a mainstream political opinion. We're at the point where if you criticize anyone, you can be called a racist so I'm not particularly a fan of the university now deciding that something is racist and severing all ties with what is presumably a group of students paying tuition
    I agree that it's a problem if the students are expelled, but they have no right to belong to a fraternity, and the fraternity certainly doesn't have any obligation to tolerate the kind of acts done by the group while engaging in fraternity organized activities. It's not as if this was a couple of members out in a bar drinking - this was during a sanctioned event, and so the fraternity really cannot tolerate that kind of behavior. They'd be signing their own death warrant as a national organization if they did.

    And we don't have to do a lot of examination whether the chant was or wasn't racist - if it's not racist, complete with the reference to niggers and lynching - then I can't imagine what would be.

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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    In my experience, the people who are the quickest to impute racial animosity to others without any justification are often the same ones who harbor the most of it themselves. Of course I don't claim to know whether that is true in your case.
    But in this incident there is plenty of justification to impute racial animosity.

  7. #237
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I agree that it's a problem if the students are expelled, but they have no right to belong to a fraternity, and the fraternity certainly doesn't have any obligation to tolerate the kind of acts done by the group while engaging in fraternity organized activities. It's not as if this was a couple of members out in a bar drinking - this was during a sanctioned event, and so the fraternity really cannot tolerate that kind of behavior. They'd be signing their own death warrant as a national organization if they did.

    And we don't have to do a lot of examination whether the chant was or wasn't racist - if it's not racist, complete with the reference to niggers and lynching - then I can't imagine what would be.
    Oh I would agree that the chance itself is definitely racially vile, but there's people who will say that it's races if I was someone of a certain ethnic group doesn't get a job, or gets pulled over for having expired license plate. So I'm not comfortable with the University, drawing the line, especially when this event was not sanctioned by the University, and does not appear to of been sponsored by the University.

    It's an event of a private group that is only marginally affiliated with the college.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    SAE was founded at the University of Alabama before the Civil War. Think about that a little bit.
    well, hot damn.. I think we finally found the smoking gun...obviously this entire fraternity is racist because it was founded in Alabama before the civil war.

    well done man, we've all been waiting on actual evidence for these wild claims flying around here... and now we have it.


    oy vey

  9. #239
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    I don't know what Oklahomas case law is regarding expectation of privacy , but in Washington courts have ruled a very narrow definition of private conversation. In one case a court up here ruled a conversation was not private, if you reasonably expected that person to tell someone else.

    Also with the recorder being present on the bus, he was arguably a party to the conversation. That's the one party consent rule applies. If you and I were having a conversation, and Lursa was in the room with us watching, even she never says a word she is a party to that convo.

    To show eavsdropping is rather difficult if the recorder was physically present and you knew s/he was there
    I don't think anyone was expecting this.

    But to the greater issue, why was this not even touched upon? A small blurb or something if it wasn't relevant. It is relevant unless they don't want it to be. (they? The ominous "they" of course)

    To me, from what has transpired and what will only grow worse as technology increases in sophistication and in application -- privacy should be everyone's foremost concern.

    As it is, we are on our way as a society to being reclusive, shut in, agoraphobics...
    "Oh no no no, you got me talkin' politics. I didn't wanna. Like I said y'all, I'm just happy to be alive. -- Sheriff Chris Mannix

  10. #240
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    Re: Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    SAE was founded at the University of Alabama before the Civil War. Think about that a little bit.
    Come to think of it, the Democrat Party was also founded in the South before the Civil War. We should probably think about that a little bit, too.

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