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Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant

I don't know what it is. I'm still human and since this hits home for me - I find all your talk about them lawyering up and finding vindication in all this repugnant.

It scares me to see future leaders like them show that kind of hate. Those kids are our future congressmen and women, doctors, lawyers, cops, what have you.

It's disturbing. They should be expelled and go flip burgers. Where their hate for black people can not bleed into others people lives by their influence.


This is an emotional response, i can admit that. But I honestly don't understand why you care about them.

Because you look at it through emotion. I'm looking at it through the Constitution, which is not supposed to be emotional. We don't get to pick and choose what parts of Free Speech we like.
 
Univ. of Oklahoma severs ties with frat after racist chant



Sigma Alpha Epsilon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



They're trying to fool people into believing that racism isn't part of this fraternity. It most certainly looks like it. It just took unquestionable video evidence and the school's money makers (athletes) leaving for them to take notice.

I was an SAE. Racism was not a part of any of it at all.

You know SAE has black chapters, right? Our leadership conference was on a cruise in 2007 and I met a lot of the black chapters. Good guys.

Your ASSUMPTIONS are ignorant. My guess? You were blackballed and SAE didn't give you a bid ;-)
 
I'm not twisting your words. You said you're glad they're in the open. Why? The only thing that came out of them being in the open are death threats.

That's not true - they're being held publicly accountable. And one of them has published a very thoughtful public apology which is probably a necessary first step for him to eventually move on from this incident.
 
That's not true - they're being held publicly accountable. And one of them has published a very thoughtful public apology which is probably a necessary first step for him to eventually move on from this incident.

Huh? That's exactly what I said earlier.
 
Because you look at it through emotion. I'm looking at it through the Constitution, which is not supposed to be emotional. We don't get to pick and choose what parts of Free Speech we like.

Fine so be it. These kids should not be infringed upon by the government.

However what ever other emotional reactions they are facing by non government officials - I think they deserve.
 
I was an SAE. Racism was not a part of any of it at all.

You know SAE has black chapters, right? Our leadership conference was on a cruise in 2007 and I met a lot of the black chapters. Good guys.

Your ASSUMPTIONS are ignorant. My guess? You were blackballed and SAE didn't give you a bid ;-)

You won't convince him of that. He has his mind made up. No evidence, just "I say so".

By the way, not only does SAE have black chapters, that particular chapter at Oklahoma has had black members in the past. One of them has gone public saying that when he was a brother and lived in the house from 1998-2002, there were other minority members at the time, and the national organization was anything but racist.

Some people see what they want to see. And I thought more than a few times that his anger towards SAE (it goes on for pages) was a direct result of being blackballed, by SAE or any other Greek for that matter.
 
This is probably because you are listening to mainstream streamline rap. Pushed out daily without any form of quality checking so that record companies can make a quick buck off of rap music that is mainly beats and repeated choruses.

Actually, he's referring to "gangsta rap" a sub-genre that has been waning in popularity for many years.

And the biggest consumers of rap music is white kids. If white people didn't buy rap, white people wouldn't know what it is and it wouldn't be such a big business.
 
Fine so be it. These kids should not be infringed upon by the government.

However what ever other emotional reactions they are facing by non government officials - I think they deserve.

I agree with that second statement. But I don't agree that they (and their families) have earned death threats. They deserve scorn or disassociation or other punishments. People have to be held accountable for their actions which is why people really need to start thinking before shooting their mouths off. My father used to say "Nobody ever got in trouble for keeping his mouth shut". Not entirely true, but you get the drift.

I think that people should have the right to say what's on their minds, but with any freedom there comes responsibility, and if you can't handle the consequences of your words being judged, don't say 'em.
 
I was an SAE. Racism was not a part of any of it at all.

You know SAE has black chapters, right? Our leadership conference was on a cruise in 2007 and I met a lot of the black chapters. Good guys.

Your ASSUMPTIONS are ignorant. My guess? You were blackballed and SAE didn't give you a bid ;-)

Lol, relax, I make too much money to worry about Mickey Mouse Clubs. I'm glad you stopped to throw in your two cents and irrelevancy though. Hey, but here is your alleged fraternity acknowledging what you wont:

Fraternity to investigate racist 'incidents' elsewhere

"Several other incidents with chapters or members have been brought to the attention of the headquarters staff and leaders, and each of those instances will be investigated for further action," SAE said in a statement. "Some of the allegations refer to incidents, which Sigma Alpha Epsilon acknowledges, from more than 20 years ago. Although we cannot change the past, we can learn from the present and alter the future."

Now move along, we've no time for your centrist views... ;)
 
I was an SAE. Racism was not a part of any of it at all.

You know SAE has black chapters, right? Our leadership conference was on a cruise in 2007 and I met a lot of the black chapters. Good guys.

Your ASSUMPTIONS are ignorant. My guess? You were blackballed and SAE didn't give you a bid ;-)

Source?

Good to know your chapter didn't but you can't deny some of the chapters disgraces or do you think it's no big deal?

SAE Proudly Touts Association To The Confederacy On Its Website | ThinkProgress
In 2013, the frat’s Washington University in St. Louis chapter was suspended after pledges reportedly sang racial slurs to African American students. According to one description of the incident,
One guy began to recite the lyrics to a rap song (Bitches Ain’t **** by Dr. Dre) as if it were a slam poem. He was reading the lyrics from his phone. The majority of the group of guys he was with found it funny and some were laughing. One member of the group was videoing the event on his phone. The guys in the group asked the black people in the booth to “show some respect” for the performance. As [redacted] continued to recite the lyrics, he came across the word “nigga” and said it with no hesitation. One of the black students tossed an empty bottle at him in anger only to be told by the group that it was part of the song, so it was okay. The black student replied that it was still offensive and the group apologized half-heartedly.
The student later apologized and admitted that this stunt was “part of an initiation for Sigma Alpha Epsilon.” The president of the Wash. U. chapter also apologized on Facebook.

In December of 2014, SAE’s Clemson University chapter hosted a “Cripmas” party, named after the California-based “Crips” street gang. Photos of the incident depicted attendees at this party flashing gang signs and dressed in costumes intended to make them look like gang members. Much of the chapter’s leadership resigned after this incident, and the chapter “suspended all activity indefinitely” shortly after the incident, according to a statement by SAE’s national office.

In 2006, an SAE member at the University of Memphis quit the fraternity after two other frat members harassed him for dating a black woman. According to an editorial in the Memphis Commercial Appeal, the former SAE member “said SAE members used the N-word to refer to his girlfriend” and that they “also suggested that he must have met Darden on the street one night and that he couldn’t possibly be interested in a real relationship with someone of another race.” The Associated Press later reported that two students were suspended by SAE’s national office after they determined that these students “made comments that were inappropriate and unbecoming.”

In 2006, SAE’s Baylor University chapter hosted an “E-Dawg”-themed party that the university’s NAACP chapter labeled “insensitive.” According to the Baylor Lariat, pictures “captured students wearing bandanas and holding 40-ounce bottles in brown paper during the party. One of the pictures depicted a student who covered herself in bronzer in imitation of a black person.” The pictures were discovered after they were posted to Facebook.

In 2000, SAE’s Oglethorpe University chapter was put on probation, along with chapters from three other fraternities, after an incident where African American students visiting from other schools faced racial harassment and assault. According to one news report uncovered on Nexis, officials at two predominantly black colleges that competed in a cross-county meet at Oglethorpe “complained that Oglethorpe students in fraternity houses threw bottles at athletes and screamed racial epithets.”

In 2009, Valdosta State University in Georgia hosted a community forum on “Heritage, Hate or Fear?” that was inspired by the university’s SAE chapter’s practice of flying a Confederate Flag on its front lawn. A lawyer for the fraternity’s national headquarters warned that the chapter could lose its charter if it continued to fly the flag.
 
It isn't a private university. It's a public university. As with any other public (government) entity, they're subject to the free speech guarantees of the First Amendment and aren't supposed punish students because they hold offensive views. This has been argued many times in courts.

Public businesses can't operate how they choose. That's why you can't open a pubic bakery and deny service to a gay couple. Public accommodation laws.


Gee, you were singing a different tune when it was a doctor refusing to treat a baby whose parents were lesbians

I don't know why any adult gives a crap about what another adult thinks of his/her bedroom preferences. The couple at the center of this story are apparently very hurt because this doctor doesn't agree with their preferences. I don't care who dislikes my blonde hair, my blue eyes, my choice of husband, my kids' clothes, what kind of car I drive, what kind of music I like, or what color my house is. Just as long as nobody doesn't provide me with what I pay for that everyone else gets for the same price that I pay.

The baby got medical care that day. This couple is pissed because the doctor doesn't like them. BFD.


Discrimination:

Discrimination is action that denies social participation or human rights to categories of people based on prejudice. This includes treatment of an individual or group based on their actual or perceived membership in a certain group or social category, "in a way that is worse than the way people are usually treated".

Not quite discrimination. The baby was seen. They didn't go to the doctor to get approval of their marriage.

Not everyone is going to like you.
 
Lol, relax, I make too much money to worry about Mickey Mouse Clubs. I'm glad you stopped to throw in your two cents and irrelevancy though. Hey, but here is your alleged fraternity acknowledging what you wont:

Fraternity to investigate racist 'incidents' elsewhere



Now move along, we've no time for your centrist views... ;)

Which also doesn't prove your claim that SAE national "promotes racism".

By the way, former black brothers of SAE in Oklahoma said that there is no racism in SAE national. So much for your claim that they "promote racism".
 
Lol, relax, I make too much money to worry about Mickey Mouse Clubs. I'm glad you stopped to throw in your two cents and irrelevancy though. Hey, but here is your alleged fraternity acknowledging what you wont:

Fraternity to investigate racist 'incidents' elsewhere



Now move along, we've no time for your centrist views... ;)

What part of what I said is irrelevant? Did you miss the part about SAE having BLACK chapters? lol, BLACK members of THAT chapter have already come out to speak. Your assumptions are irrelevant.
 
Actually, he's referring to "gangsta rap" a sub-genre that has been waning in popularity for many years.

And the biggest consumers of rap music is white kids. If white people didn't buy rap, white people wouldn't know what it is and it wouldn't be such a big business.

I know that is what he is referring to. I still don't know of any rap music that advocates white hate - espically since you are establishing that the biggest consumers are white.

Though it should be pointed out that white consumers eat up mainstream rap. Gangsta rap has never really been mainstream and it's consumer base by and large is black and Hispanic.
 
Which also doesn't prove your claim that SAE national "promotes racism".

By the way, former black brothers of SAE in Oklahoma said that there is no racism in SAE national.

No they didn't. What they said is that the frat in question use to have black members. That's entirely irrelevant to an organization promoting racism. That you fail to see this is beyond me. You're desperate.
 
What part of what I said is irrelevant? Did you miss the part about SAE having BLACK chapters? lol, BLACK members of THAT chapter have already come out to speak. Your assumptions are irrelevant.

Did SAE promote racism when you were a brother?
 
Thought police? The hell? So an organization severing ties with another organization that poorly represents it is being thought police? Do we all have to keep every social connection open until the end of time, no matter what?

If a church severed ties with a secular aid organization for that organization's stance on homosexuality, is the church being 'the thought police'?Ridiculous.

Would that even be allowed, without leftwing outrage?
 
What part of what I said is irrelevant?

Start with the first word in the post, then when you get to the period, you're there.

lol, BLACK members of THAT chapter have already come out to speak. Your assumptions are irrelevant.

There are no assumptions. SAE has a detailed history of racism. :shrug:
 
Source?

Good to know your chapter didn't but you can't deny some of the chapters disgraces or do you think it's no big deal?

SAE Proudly Touts Association To The Confederacy On Its Website | ThinkProgress

I'm not saying some chapters aren't racist, but if you've lived the fraternity life, unfortunately, MOST chapters of ANY frat have some form of racism. Including black fraternities.

Ours had one incident but we had a President who was on his game, and we gave that racist loser the boot.
 
No they didn't. What they said is that the frat in question use to have black members. That's entirely irrelevant to an organization promoting racism. That you fail to see this is beyond me. You're desperate.

Wrong.

An African-American alumnus of OU’s Sigma Alpha Epsilon chapter is now reacting to what he saw.

“It’s like getting punched in the stomach,” Jonathon Davis, who was an active SAE member at OU from 1998 to 2002.

Davis, who now lives in the Denver area, recalls his time in the fraternity fondly.

“They were diverse—they had diverse socio-economic backgrounds, diverse ethnic and racial backgrounds and you could really feel they were all truly friends and good people,” Davis said, adding that members during his time included Asians and Hispanics. “And that’s why I joined.”

When Davis saw the video, he was shocked.

He says that kind of behavior would never have been tolerated by the fraternity when he was a member.

“We did embrace diversity-and somewhere along the line, everything went off the rails,” Davis said.


‘It’s like getting punched in the stomach,’ African-American alumnus of OU’s SAE chapter reacts to racist video | KFOR.com

While the Oklahoma frat has never had a lot of black members, that didn't matter to James when he joined in 2001. SAE was where he forged lifelong friendships, where he and others grew into men.

That's what James thinks that his own fraternity brothers would've done, whether he was around or not.

They understood the importance of stepping up to say: "This isn't right, this isn't what I stand for, this isn't gentlemanly, this isn't even human," he said. "That's what being an SAE is."

"My pledge class ... wouldn't let that happen," he said. "And I don't know what's happened to (the Oklahoma SAE chapter) since then."


"That entire house has accepted the culture that accepts that song, those words, that imagery," James said. "So the whole house has to be punished."

His former frat brothers are different from him, of course. Their skin color wouldn't have stopped them from getting into SAE if the twisted chant reflected reality.

Still, James feels their pain is real and sincere. Those on this weekend's video may not be his brothers, but those he knew from 2001 to 2005 still are.

"I don't think that they can fully encompass the pain and betrayal that I feel," James said of his white friends from the fraternity. "But by holding me so close in their life, they know that their brother was hurt."


Black U. of Oklahoma SAE alumnus: 'They are not my brothers' - CNN.com
 
I have no problem with the University severing its ties to the fraternity; freedom of association.
 
Did SAE promote racism when you were a brother?

Absolutely not. We were taught to be "true gentlemen" (our motto). We took it very seriously. We kicked out one brother who had a few racial incidents.
 
I'm not saying some chapters aren't racist, but if you've lived the fraternity life, unfortunately, MOST chapters of ANY frat have some form of racism. Including black fraternities.

When all else fails, fall back on the "all people are racist" argument. Hey, can you show us a black fraternity with a history of doing anything similar to the detailed history of SAE's racism? Thanks. :)
 
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