Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

PeteEU · Mar 8, 2015

zimmer said:
What's funny is to watch the socialists complain that tax collection is the problem... it wasn't before the socialists got in. The country was doing fine for decades as the article I linked to illustrated.

LOL it was not.. the article is utter bull****. Tax collection has been a problem in Greece for hundreds of years. The difference is that, before the state could just print money to make up the difference and let inflation eat away at the debt. They cant do that any more.

In come the socialist schemes, the perversion of society, and THE BIG PROBLEMS... but the socialists claim it's not the dimwitted socialists schemes that are at fault... The Police State isn't strong enough... which is what you need for socialism to work... FORCE.

Funny a right winger complaining about a police state..

Crovax · Mar 8, 2015

PeteEU said:
Well take a look at the numbers again. Let me give you a hint.. when something is % of GDP.. remember to take any changes in GDP into account. That is why the numbers are silly and useless.

once GDP and revenues are calculated they are a static number, there might be some dispute over what that number is but its minor. GDP % is a great number for comparisons because it you can compare different countries with vastly different populations and changes in GDP and inflation from year to year will not hinder the comparison.

You can look at the USA and pretty much every year since WW2 our tax receipts have been between 15-20% of GDP, it clearly works great as a comparrison tool to those who understand basic math. To those who dont it can seem scary, confusing and even stupid

Typical right wing bull****. The problem is that the Greeks are not paying their taxes pure and simple. Stop denying the freaking obvious.

Tax evasion in Greece: In flagrante | The Economist
Say what... how can that be?
Cool so Greeks just make up their income as they go when reporting to the Greek IRS.. can you do that in the US?

You are denying the obvious. Can you really not see the correlation between higher taxes and a higher tax evasion rate? As your first article points out, tax evasion is not only a problem in Greece but all of Europe. Wonder why? On average the EU (especially the EU 18) has on average twice the % of gdp revenue in taxes than the US.

Fenton · Mar 8, 2015

PeteEU said:
Has absolutely nothing to do with socialism. Tax evasion in Greece is a national sport and has been since the Ottomans were in charge. It was one of the main ways to "stick it to the Ottomans" so to say. Tax evasion is the reason Greece got into the situation they are in.

But Tax evasion has little to do with any of this. Massive spending and borrowing and corruption and all to prop up a ever expanding public sector is why Greece is bankrupt.

PeteEU · Mar 8, 2015

Crovax said:
once GDP and revenues are calculated they are a static number, there might be some dispute over what that number is but its minor. GDP % is a great number for comparisons because it you can compare different countries with vastly different populations and changes in GDP and inflation from year to year will not hinder the comparison.

Dude... have you looked at Greek GDP for the last 10 years? And compared that to other countries?

You can look at the USA and pretty much every year since WW2 our tax receipts have been between 15-20% of GDP, it clearly works great as a comparrison tool to those who understand basic math. To those who dont it can seem scary, confusing and even stupid

And that is not correct.

First off the Greek numbers.

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custom...nalysis/tax_structures/2014/pr_92-2014_en.pdf

33%ish

But there is an interesting comment in this article

Tax revenue statistics - government revenue from taxes and social contributions - Statistics Explained

In Greece, absolute tax revenue continued to decrease in 2012. However, the further decrease in GDP in 2012 led to an increase in the tax-to-GDP ratio.

That is why the tax to GDP ratio is problematic. Greek GDP has collapsed relatively more than tax revenue, which pushes up the % more. Now this could automatically level it self out over time, but that time has not yet gone by.

Secondly US number you quote.. correct some what for.. Federal, but not total... you left out local and state taxes, plus I believe also things like SS and other contributions are not part of the number. If those are added then you get to around 30% as well.

You are denying the obvious. Can you really not see the correlation between higher taxes and a higher tax evasion rate? As your first article points out, tax evasion is not only a problem in Greece but all of Europe. Wonder why? On average the EU (especially the EU 18) has on average twice the % of gdp revenue in taxes than the US.

Well if we say that higher taxes gives higher evasion, then tax evasion must be running rampant in Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland... no wait it is not, they are in fact some of the best tax collecting countries on the planet, because unlike the US and Greeks, they have a simple administrative system in place that makes collection and reporting easy, simple and automatic.

And you constantly forget that the EU tax numbers are for national, state and local ... where as the US numbers are more than often only for the Federal part, leaving out state and local government.

PeteEU · Mar 8, 2015

Fenton said:
But Tax evasion has little to do with any of this. Massive spending and borrowing and corruption and all to prop up a ever expanding public sector is why Greece is bankrupt.

Yes that is the narrative that we have been spoon fed by mostly American owned news organisations.. but is it the truth?

Now the corruption part is true, Greece is very corrupt. But corruptions comes when an economy collapses.. we have seen it time and time again. But there is corruption everywhere, and the further you get from central control the worse it gets.. even in the US. Fixing this is not easy and cant be done over a few years. For example, tax evasion among doctors, and other professionals is massive in Greece. However when government wanted to tackle this problem, they were blocked in parliament.. why? Because a lot of the elected officials came from these very professions.

Borrowing.. yes all countries borrow. The problem here was that Greece lied with the help of American banks. Their debt was not big, but because they could not be trusted due to the lying, then the debt became very risky... was there more? It is the same with the American sub-prime collapse and the credit crunch. Banks did not know what they had on their books because of all the "creative capitalism" that had been going on for a decade.. they had no idea if the 1000 mortgages they owned were even worth what was on the paper. Hence risk went up, and credit dried up.

Massive spending.. really, are you sure about that? Sure there is fraud and waste, but "massive spending"... the numbers dont exactly back that up, especially when compared to other countries.

General government final consumption expenditure (% of GDP) | Data | Table

In 2001 Greek spending in % of GDP (yes it is a stupid measure since GDP can go up and down) was 18.2 %. US was 14.5% .. but notice this does not include military spending.

In 2013 Greek spending in % of GDP was 20%... but remember GDP has gone down considerably. The US was 15.2.

Now the question is of course if the US numbers include local and state spending as well.. that is unclear.

Point is, there was not "massive spending" as we have been told. Bad spending, fraud and corruption.... yes, but "massive overspending" .. not really.

This brings us back to taxes. According to reports, in one year half of the deficit was related to tax evasion.. now that is a lot. In 2009 the dodged taxes was at least 28 billion euros.. at least.

So you can blame overspending, waste and what not, but 1/3 to 1/2 of your deficit is due to people not paying their taxes, then this tax dodging problem is just as important if not more.

The Greek problem is and always has been a problem of corruption and tax dodging, not as much on overspending.

Crovax · Mar 8, 2015

PeteEU said:
And that is not correct.

First off the Greek numbers.

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custom...nalysis/tax_structures/2014/pr_92-2014_en.pdf

33%ish

My Greek numbers are from the same source

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/docume...P-EN.PDF/497e3b55-dca0-482f-93e0-d82f81bc92d7

How can you claim yours are accurate and mine arent?

That is why the tax to GDP ratio is problematic. Greek GDP has collapsed relatively more than tax revenue, which pushes up the % more. Now this could automatically level it self out over time, but that time has not yet gone by.

Funny when the US has its recession the tax as a % of GDP went down

Secondly US number you quote.. correct some what for.. Federal, but not total... you left out local and state taxes, plus I believe also things like SS and other contributions are not part of the number. If those are added then you get to around 30% as well.

Nope SS an medicaid/medicare is about 33% of that federal tax number and state and local numbers can vary greatly

Well if we say that higher taxes gives higher evasion, then tax evasion must be running rampant in Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland... no wait it is not, they are in fact some of the best tax collecting countries on the planet, because unlike the US and Greeks, they have a simple administrative system in place that makes collection and reporting easy, simple and automatic.

Tax evasion in those countries are still nearly twice as high as that in the USA

Fenton · Mar 8, 2015

PeteEU said:
Yes that is the narrative that we have been spoon fed by mostly American owned news organisations.. but is it the truth?

What American news outlet ??

Riots In Greece Over Economic Reforms

" To outsiders, it's all too clear. Greece has been living beyond its means for years, borrowing heavily from the rest of the world and, until recently, fudging its books to hide the reality. The financial markets no longer trust it, and will not lend to it or roll over debt, except at prohibitive prices. That's what happens when you push your luck too far.

The facts are simple. Last year, Greece ran a budget deficit equivalent to 13.5 per cent of its gross domestic product (compared with 4.1 per cent in Australia). Its gross public debt was 115 per cent of GDP (as against 16 per cent in Australia), and rising rapidly. And the banks would not lend more. ''

Greece wasn't a victim of some larger Financial crisis. Greece's problems are directly related to the fact that it's expenditures increased exponentially ( On entitlements and Govt wages and giveaways ) while it's revenues fell. And to bridge the budget Gaps it borrowed massive amounts of money from Foreign creditors while refusing to offer up a accurate representation of it's debt.

Greece chose to inject massive amounts of borrowed money into a bloated Public Sector that produced NOTHING of value. So without production of a product that could increase revenues via exports and taxes they chose to throw that capital away.

In a desperate and unprincipled attempt to circumvent their financial responsibility, on of the first things the new Greek PM chose to do was to manufacturer claims of " War crimes " by their largest creditor, the German Government.

It would seem corruption is a systemic problem in Greece. Greece lied to get into the EU, once in they took advantage of their status as a member and distributed their worthless bonds throughout European Banks as they violated the Maastricht Treaty's limits on Deficit spending until they could not hide their financial issues anymore.

Their creditors offered plans to help Greece AND to save the Euro and now, the NEW Greek PM is pulling this corrupt, low life attempt to screw over his Countries creditors. No, nothing has changed in Greece.

Its the same Country that lied about their massive debt and deficit for nearly 10 years while they distributed Financial time bombs throughout European banks.

PeteEU · Mar 8, 2015

Crovax said:
My Greek numbers are from the same source

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/docume...P-EN.PDF/497e3b55-dca0-482f-93e0-d82f81bc92d7

How can you claim yours are accurate and mine arent?

Then explain the differences.

Funny when the US has its recession the tax as a % of GDP went down

You seem to be wilfully ignoring the facts. US GDP barely went down during the recession and has been growing for years. Greece on the other hand has had decreasing GDP since 2006 and it is still going down.. should bottom out this year. To put it into perspective.

GDP per capita (current US$) | Data | Table

US GDP on this list is 53042 in 2013. It was 48401 when the crisis started in 2008.
Greek GDP on this list is 21954 in 2013, but it was 31107 in 2008.

So... you were saying?

Nope SS an medicaid/medicare is about 33% of that federal tax number and state and local numbers can vary greatly

And that explains nothing.. are state and local numbers included or not?

Tax evasion in those countries are still nearly twice as high as that in the USA

LOL where on earth did you get that idea? Do you realize how hard it is to cheat on your taxes in those places? What do you base your assertion on?

Crovax · Mar 8, 2015

PeteEU said:
Then explain the differences.

Thats what I just asked you to do.

You seem to be wilfully ignoring the facts. US GDP barely went down during the recession and has been growing for years. Greece on the other hand has had decreasing GDP since 2006 and it is still going down.. should bottom out this year. To put it into perspective.

GDP per capita (current US$) | Data | Table

US GDP on this list is 53042 in 2013. It was 48401 when the crisis started in 2008.
Greek GDP on this list is 21954 in 2013, but it was 31107 in 2008.

You claimed that a recession made the GDP% higher but it has had the opposite effect in the US, our GDP % was the highest it ever was when our economy was they best it ever was

And that explains nothing.. are state and local numbers included or not?

You cant include state and local numbers when they vary so greatly, I pay almost nothing in state and local taxes since my state has zero income tax, no sales tax on necessity items and I can buy my big ticket items online with no tax.

LOL where on earth did you get that idea? Do you realize how hard it is to cheat on your taxes in those places? What do you base your assertion on?

US 2.3% of GDP lost in taxes
Sweden 8.9%
Denmark 8.7%
Norway 7.7%
Finland 7.5%

http://www.tackletaxhavens.com/Cost_of_Tax_Abuse_TJN Research_23rd_Nov_2011.pdf

PeteEU · Mar 8, 2015

Fenton said:
What American news outlet ??

Riots In Greece Over Economic Reforms

" To outsiders, it's all too clear. Greece has been living beyond its means for years, borrowing heavily from the rest of the world and, until recently, fudging its books to hide the reality. The financial markets no longer trust it, and will not lend to it or roll over debt, except at prohibitive prices. That's what happens when you push your luck too far.

The facts are simple. Last year, Greece ran a budget deficit equivalent to 13.5 per cent of its gross domestic product (compared with 4.1 per cent in Australia). Its gross public debt was 115 per cent of GDP (as against 16 per cent in Australia), and rising rapidly. And the banks would not lend more. ''

Greece wasn't a victim of some larger Financial crisis. Greece's problems are directly related to the fact that it's expenditures increased exponentially ( On entitlements and Govt wages and giveaways ) while it's revenues fell. And to bridge the budget Gaps it borrowed massive amounts of money from Foreign creditors while refusing to offer up a accurate representation of it's debt.

Why did its revenues fall? Ever think of that? Plus it is a political opinion piece that stinks of right wing ideology devoid of actual facts. You do know that the US public sector employment is larger than the Greek right? Doubt you would find that nugget of information in any Anglo-American news outlets.

Greece chose to inject massive amounts of borrowed money into a bloated Public Sector that produced NOTHING of value. So without production of a product that could increase revenues via exports and taxes they chose to throw that capital away.

So you are one of those that think the public sector produces nothing of value and public sector workers dont have real jobs? And "bloated".. that has been disproved. Corrupt and full of fraud.. yes, but bloated no.

In a desperate and unprincipled attempt to circumvent their financial responsibility, on of the first things the new Greek PM chose to do was to manufacturer claims of " War crimes " by their largest creditor, the German Government.

Again false. The first one to float that idea, was the last right wing government...2 years ago. But back then it was barely mentioned, but when a leftie floats the idea then it is all over the place and being promoted by right wingers..

Greek Commission Concludes Germany Owes Billions in War Reparations - SPIEGEL ONLINE

2013... long before the new government.. and when the New Democracy was in power.. you know the right wing.

And to be fair.. they do have a point, at least on some of the issues.

It would seem corruption is a systemic problem in Greece.

LOL where have you been the last 1500+ years?

Greece lied to get into the EU

No they did not. Greece met the requirements when it became a member of the EEC in 1981. Where it possibly "Fixed the books" was its membership of the Euro.. that investigation is not exactly finished. Personally I think they did fiddle with the books but kicking them out now would hurt them as well as the rest of Europe.

once in they took advantage of their status as a member and distributed their worthless bonds throughout European Banks as they violated the Maastricht Treaty's limits on Deficit spending until they could not hide their financial issues anymore.

LOL that is not exactly how things work. What they did was hide the true economic situation and debt with the help of American banks, and hence manipulated their bond yields. The banks with the exception of the 2 American banks involved in the fraud, were duped pure and simple like the rest of us.

Their creditors offered plans to help Greece AND to save the Euro and now, the NEW Greek PM is pulling this corrupt, low life attempt to screw over his Countries creditors. No, nothing has changed in Greece.

And you base this on what? You do know who their creditors are right?

PeteEU · Mar 9, 2015

Crovax said:
Thats what I just asked you to do.

You are making the claim..

You claimed that a recession made the GDP% higher but it has had the opposite effect in the US, our GDP % was the highest it ever was when our economy was they best it ever was

Eh? Not sure I understand what you wrote there. My point is, while the US GDP went down slightly and has since gone up, the Greek GDP has lost 1/3 of its value in the same period. Hence anything in % of GDP will be seriously effected.

You cant include state and local numbers when they vary so greatly, I pay almost nothing in state and local taxes since my state has zero income tax, no sales tax on necessity items and I can buy my big ticket items online with no tax.

Then you cant compare US numbers to anyone, since Greek numbers, and any European numbers include state and local numbers.

US 2.3% of GDP lost in taxes
Sweden 8.9%
Denmark 8.7%
Norway 7.7%
Finland 7.5%

http://www.tackletaxhavens.com/Cost_of_Tax_Abuse_TJN Research_23rd_Nov_2011.pdf

LOL that is utter bull**** numbers. Why? Because the US tax system is riddled with loop holes that are fully legal but are in reality a tax dodge put in place by special interests. Where as in the other countries those kinds of loopholes are rare and the tax system is far more transparent. I would wager that the tax dodging in the US is massive.. you just called it legal loopholes and accounting principles. The end result is the same.. you claim 30% tax rate but only pay 15% at the end of the day.. the US tax system is rotten to the core.

Fenton · Mar 9, 2015

PeteEU said:
Why did its revenues fall? Ever think of that? Plus it is a political opinion piece that stinks of right wing ideology devoid of actual facts. You do know that the US public sector employment is larger than the Greek right? Doubt you would find that nugget of information in any Anglo-American news outlets.

So you are one of those that think the public sector produces nothing of value and public sector workers dont have real jobs? And "bloated".. that has been disproved. Corrupt and full of fraud.. yes, but bloated no.

Again false. The first one to float that idea, was the last right wing government...2 years ago. But back then it was barely mentioned, but when a leftie floats the idea then it is all over the place and being promoted by right wingers..

Greek Commission Concludes Germany Owes Billions in War Reparations - SPIEGEL ONLINE

2013... long before the new government.. and when the New Democracy was in power.. you know the right wing.

And to be fair.. they do have a point, at least on some of the issues.

LOL where have you been the last 1500+ years?

No they did not. Greece met the requirements when it became a member of the EEC in 1981. Where it possibly "Fixed the books" was its membership of the Euro.. that investigation is not exactly finished. Personally I think they did fiddle with the books but kicking them out now would hurt them as well as the rest of Europe.

LOL that is not exactly how things work. What they did was hide the true economic situation and debt with the help of American banks, and hence manipulated their bond yields. The banks with the exception of the 2 American banks involved in the fraud, were duped pure and simple like the rest of us.

And you base this on what? You do know who their creditors are right?

No, the Public Sector produces service, but nothing that can be sold, exported and taxed.

Therefore, they produce nothing of value when it comes to increasing revenue.

Greece grew their public sector exponentially up to 2008, and borrowed to fill in the budget gaps under the pretense that they were well within the limits of the Treaty THEY signed to get into the Union

There was nothing " right wing " about what they did.

fmw · Mar 9, 2015

Perhaps they just need to learn how to live within their means like we need to do. If the people want more than that after it is extablished, then tax them for it.

PeteEU · Mar 9, 2015

Fenton said:
No, the Public Sector produces service, but nothing that can be sold, exported and taxed.

What? So public service employees dont pay taxes? They dont buy stuff and pay taxes? Public companies dont export stuff or sell stuff? That paying fees for access to various things is not "selling"? So when the US telecoms just bought access to frequencies, then this was not selling stuff?

Therefore, they produce nothing of value when it comes to increasing revenue.

Are you sure?

Greece grew their public sector exponentially up to 2008

It did? Define exponentially, because normally that means 1 to 2.. 2 to 4... 4 to 8... if I am not wrong?

and borrowed to fill in the budget gaps under the pretense that they were well within the limits of the Treaty THEY signed to get into the Union

Now that is fraud and we know that. And no one has been punished for this anywhere.. now if it stood to me, then everyone involved in the fraud would be behind bars and their companies sized.

There was nothing " right wing " about what they did.

LOL it had everything to do with right wing ideology.... just like the whole sub-prime crapper was based on right wing ideology.

jmotivator · Mar 9, 2015

PeteEU said:
Not if that tax evasion was the reason for you spending more money than you were receiving. If you budget 100 dollars income, but only get 80 because someone did not pay your full amount.. whos fault is that?

After a few decades it becomes the state's fault. They could budget for the expected rate of return but choose not to.

zimmer · Mar 15, 2015

PeteEU said:
LOL it was not.. the article is utter bull****. Tax collection has been a problem in Greece for hundreds of years. The difference is that, before the state could just print money to make up the difference and let inflation eat away at the debt. They cant do that any more.

Funny a right winger complaining about a police state..

Socialist schemes require force. We see Greece entertaining the worst kind of behavior... USSR styled spying on neighbors.

Tell me... what will that do to a society?

Conservatives are for Liberty and equality under the law. Weŕe for sane fiscal policy... not Utopian schemes that fail everywhere and cause misery when they implode... which they always do.

Here we have an example of how Greece has imploded due to socialist idiocy... and you choose to ignore the simple facts. Typical of bitter clingers.

zimmer · Mar 15, 2015

joG said:
That is not true in every case. At least in one that I checked out at the time, the German officials negotiating the deal specified what they wanted to have for the money and the bribed person went back and got more detail. I was led to understand that this was the case in other deals, but know so only for one. What is interesting is that the finance officials have no legal mandate to bribe foreigners to steal data and commit industrial espionage. This was different in the first data deal, which was as you say the purchase of a CD by the BND, which does have a legal mandate to do such transactions. The later ones were transacted by domestic clerks, however, who had no legal basis to commission theft in a foreign country. Furthermore, the data purchase would have been totally illegal, had it been commissioned in a domestic bank. The administration is constitutionally not allowed to have access to that type of data.

Link it please... because I only heard and read about the German State (or states) buying info.

PeteEU · Mar 15, 2015

zimmer said:
Socialist schemes require force. We see Greece entertaining the worst kind of behavior... USSR styled spying on neighbors.

And you are saying that people reporting other people for tax evasion does not happen in the US? That people dont report other people for crimes in the US?

Conservatives are for Liberty and equality under the law.

HAHAHAHAHAH you have got to be kidding? So when Conservatives try to stop homosexuals for having equal rights... then they are doing what? So when conservatives try to prevent people of lower economic means and different skin colour to vote.. then that is what kind of liberty? And equality under the law... /wave Ferguson and all the other areas where people of colour are under the jackboot of "conservative" value whites.

Weŕe for sane fiscal policy... not Utopian schemes that fail everywhere and cause misery when they implode... which they always do.

Sane fiscal policy.. you mean like under Bush when you had a booming economy and yet never had a budget surplus and let alone pay off any debt that their hero Reagan had built up over 8 years? Or starting 2 wars and borrowing trillions to pay for them?

Here we have an example of how Greece has imploded due to socialist idiocy... and you choose to ignore the simple facts. Typical of bitter clingers.

I aint the one ignoring facts.. both economically, socially and historically.. but hey you live in a bubble of ignorance and hatred it seems.

US Conservative · Mar 15, 2015

zimmer said:
Socialism requires force, and when socialism implodes... as it always does (just a matter of time) things get really ugly and as we see evolves to some of the worst aspects of the USSR with not just the state with an iron fist, but with the state employing people to spy on each other.

Socialism... What a gift.

Orwell would be proud...and I say this as the son of a Greek immigrant.

zimmer · Mar 15, 2015

PeteEU said:
And you are saying that people reporting other people for tax evasion does not happen in the US? That people dont report other people for crimes in the US?

Like I stated... the worst of socialism. Greece is looking at it as a national program. That's perverse... but that's socialism for ya.

HAHAHAHAHAH you have got to be kidding? So when Conservatives try to stop homosexuals for having equal rights... then they are doing what? So when conservatives try to prevent people of lower economic means and different skin colour to vote.. then that is what kind of liberty? And equality under the law... /wave Ferguson and all the other areas where people of colour are under the jackboot of "conservative" value whites.

I see you have eaten the lies about Ferguson whole... Not surprising.

We have ID's for everything, but not voting??? That's racist? No.

The perversion of marriage... an institution between a man and women for ages has been corrupted. The reason... socialist benefits.

Sane fiscal policy.. you mean like under Bush when you had a booming economy and yet never had a budget surplus and let alone pay off any debt that their hero Reagan had built up over 8 years? Or starting 2 wars and borrowing trillions to pay for them?

It's nice you admit Bush's tax cuts helped keep the economy rolling.

I didn't like Bush's spending... but it pales when compared to what Obama has done... and he has caused economic damage with his idiotic anti-growth ideas.

When it comes to defending the nation... your ignorance is collasal. Clinton, as a typical Leftist... neglected the military, as has Obama. And those wars... voted for by the Left. Of course... their votes were for political expediency, and then they truned on the troops for the same reason. Lower scum you cannot find.

I aint the one ignoring facts.. both economically, socially and historically.. but hey you live in a bubble of ignorance and hatred it seems.

You ignore the cause of Greece's decay, and the result is their USSR styled ideas. Socialism fails everywhere... it is only a matter of time.

joG · Mar 15, 2015

zimmer said:
Link it please... because I only heard and read about the German State (or states) buying info.

I read it all in the German, Swiss and Austrian press, so I do not know what has been written in English. Here in the German Wikipedia article it says that the Swiss have leveled formal accusations against German offucials in court for giving instructions of what to steal and economic/industrial espionage.
Steuersünder-CD

Here are any number of press articles many referring to espionage and contracted theft.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Ste...-vf-de&sourceid=chrome-mobile&espv=1&ie=UTF-8

PeteEU · Mar 15, 2015

zimmer said:
Like I stated... the worst of socialism. Greece is looking at it as a national program. That's perverse... but that's socialism for ya.

Not answering the question.. classic avoidance.

I see you have eaten the lies about Ferguson whole... Not surprising.

More classic avoidance and denial.. quite common among American conservatives it seems.

We have ID's for everything, but not voting??? That's racist? No.

Again ignoring the reality of all such laws and who they hit and why they are actually made.

The perversion of marriage... an institution between a man and women for ages has been corrupted. The reason... socialist benefits.

Ahhh so you dont believe in liberty eh? And you certainly dont believe in equality...

It's nice you admit Bush's tax cuts helped keep the economy rolling.

Never said anything of the sort.

I didn't like Bush's spending... but it pales when compared to what Obama has done... and he has caused economic damage with his idiotic anti-growth ideas.

And yet you never bitched about it and still cant admit it is wrong.

When it comes to defending the nation... your ignorance is collasal. Clinton, as a typical Leftist... neglected the military, as has Obama. And those wars... voted for by the Left. Of course... their votes were for political expediency, and then they truned on the troops for the same reason. Lower scum you cannot find.

More passing the buck attitude of the modern American conservative.. anti equality, anti liberty, anti choice and it is never their fault that something goes wrong.

You ignore the cause of Greece's decay, and the result is their USSR styled ideas. Socialism fails everywhere... it is only a matter of time.

Do I? What is the cause of Greece's decay?.. let me guess socialism right?

Red_Dave · Mar 15, 2015

zimmer said:
Socialism requires force, and when socialism implodes... as it always does (just a matter of time) things get really ugly and as we see evolves to some of the worst aspects of the USSR with not just the state with an iron fist, but with the state employing people to spy on each other.

Socialism... What a gift.

You don´t think increased tax revenue have any effect on the countries debt?

zimmer · Mar 15, 2015

Red_Dave said:
You don´t think increased tax revenue have any effect on the countries debt?

That is the product of a corrupt socialist system that thinks it can buy votes. In the end... someone must pay for the idiocy

In this instance, and in a short period of time the socialist state is insolvent. The state then turns everyday citizens into a sleazy arm of the state police.

What a wonderful thing this socialism is. You get the goodies, and in the end the state gets to employ the worst of the USSR.

What if...? · Mar 15, 2015

zimmer said:
Socialism requires force, and when socialism implodes... as it always does (just a matter of time) things get really ugly and as we see evolves to some of the worst aspects of the USSR with not just the state with an iron fist, but with the state employing people to spy on each other.

Socialism... What a gift.

Hate to tell you but capitalism requires force too.

Force to protect property. Force to enforce contracts. Etc.

Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

PeteEU

Crovax

Fenton

PeteEU

PeteEU

Crovax

Fenton

PeteEU

Crovax

PeteEU

PeteEU

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jmotivator

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Red_Dave

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