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Thread: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

  1. #31
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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    And that is not correct.

    First off the Greek numbers.

    http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs...92-2014_en.pdf

    33%ish
    My Greek numbers are from the same source

    http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documen...0-d82f81bc92d7

    How can you claim yours are accurate and mine arent?

    That is why the tax to GDP ratio is problematic. Greek GDP has collapsed relatively more than tax revenue, which pushes up the % more. Now this could automatically level it self out over time, but that time has not yet gone by.
    Funny when the US has its recession the tax as a % of GDP went down

    Secondly US number you quote.. correct some what for.. Federal, but not total... you left out local and state taxes, plus I believe also things like SS and other contributions are not part of the number. If those are added then you get to around 30% as well.
    Nope SS an medicaid/medicare is about 33% of that federal tax number and state and local numbers can vary greatly


    Well if we say that higher taxes gives higher evasion, then tax evasion must be running rampant in Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland... no wait it is not, they are in fact some of the best tax collecting countries on the planet, because unlike the US and Greeks, they have a simple administrative system in place that makes collection and reporting easy, simple and automatic.
    Tax evasion in those countries are still nearly twice as high as that in the USA

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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Yes that is the narrative that we have been spoon fed by mostly American owned news organisations.. but is it the truth?
    What American news outlet ??

    Riots In Greece Over Economic Reforms

    " To outsiders, it's all too clear. Greece has been living beyond its means for years, borrowing heavily from the rest of the world and, until recently, fudging its books to hide the reality. The financial markets no longer trust it, and will not lend to it or roll over debt, except at prohibitive prices. That's what happens when you push your luck too far.

    The facts are simple. Last year, Greece ran a budget deficit equivalent to 13.5 per cent of its gross domestic product (compared with 4.1 per cent in Australia). Its gross public debt was 115 per cent of GDP (as against 16 per cent in Australia), and rising rapidly. And the banks would not lend more.
    ''

    Greece wasn't a victim of some larger Financial crisis. Greece's problems are directly related to the fact that it's expenditures increased exponentially ( On entitlements and Govt wages and giveaways ) while it's revenues fell. And to bridge the budget Gaps it borrowed massive amounts of money from Foreign creditors while refusing to offer up a accurate representation of it's debt.

    Greece chose to inject massive amounts of borrowed money into a bloated Public Sector that produced NOTHING of value. So without production of a product that could increase revenues via exports and taxes they chose to throw that capital away.

    In a desperate and unprincipled attempt to circumvent their financial responsibility, on of the first things the new Greek PM chose to do was to manufacturer claims of " War crimes " by their largest creditor, the German Government.

    It would seem corruption is a systemic problem in Greece. Greece lied to get into the EU, once in they took advantage of their status as a member and distributed their worthless bonds throughout European Banks as they violated the Maastricht Treaty's limits on Deficit spending until they could not hide their financial issues anymore.

    Their creditors offered plans to help Greece AND to save the Euro and now, the NEW Greek PM is pulling this corrupt, low life attempt to screw over his Countries creditors. No, nothing has changed in Greece.

    Its the same Country that lied about their massive debt and deficit for nearly 10 years while they distributed Financial time bombs throughout European banks.
    The New Democratic Party Slogan :

    " Return to Power By Any Means Necessary "

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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    My Greek numbers are from the same source

    http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documen...0-d82f81bc92d7

    How can you claim yours are accurate and mine arent?
    Then explain the differences.

    Funny when the US has its recession the tax as a % of GDP went down
    You seem to be wilfully ignoring the facts. US GDP barely went down during the recession and has been growing for years. Greece on the other hand has had decreasing GDP since 2006 and it is still going down.. should bottom out this year. To put it into perspective.

    GDP per capita (current US$) | Data | Table

    US GDP on this list is 53042 in 2013. It was 48401 when the crisis started in 2008.
    Greek GDP on this list is 21954 in 2013, but it was 31107 in 2008.

    So... you were saying?

    Nope SS an medicaid/medicare is about 33% of that federal tax number and state and local numbers can vary greatly
    And that explains nothing.. are state and local numbers included or not?

    Tax evasion in those countries are still nearly twice as high as that in the USA
    LOL where on earth did you get that idea? Do you realize how hard it is to cheat on your taxes in those places? What do you base your assertion on?
    PeteEU

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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Then explain the differences.
    Thats what I just asked you to do.



    You seem to be wilfully ignoring the facts. US GDP barely went down during the recession and has been growing for years. Greece on the other hand has had decreasing GDP since 2006 and it is still going down.. should bottom out this year. To put it into perspective.

    GDP per capita (current US$) | Data | Table

    US GDP on this list is 53042 in 2013. It was 48401 when the crisis started in 2008.
    Greek GDP on this list is 21954 in 2013, but it was 31107 in 2008.
    You claimed that a recession made the GDP% higher but it has had the opposite effect in the US, our GDP % was the highest it ever was when our economy was they best it ever was


    And that explains nothing.. are state and local numbers included or not?
    You cant include state and local numbers when they vary so greatly, I pay almost nothing in state and local taxes since my state has zero income tax, no sales tax on necessity items and I can buy my big ticket items online with no tax.

    LOL where on earth did you get that idea? Do you realize how hard it is to cheat on your taxes in those places? What do you base your assertion on?
    US 2.3% of GDP lost in taxes
    Sweden 8.9%
    Denmark 8.7%
    Norway 7.7%
    Finland 7.5%

    http://www.tackletaxhavens.com/Cost_...d_Nov_2011.pdf

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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    What American news outlet ??

    Riots In Greece Over Economic Reforms

    " To outsiders, it's all too clear. Greece has been living beyond its means for years, borrowing heavily from the rest of the world and, until recently, fudging its books to hide the reality. The financial markets no longer trust it, and will not lend to it or roll over debt, except at prohibitive prices. That's what happens when you push your luck too far.

    The facts are simple. Last year, Greece ran a budget deficit equivalent to 13.5 per cent of its gross domestic product (compared with 4.1 per cent in Australia). Its gross public debt was 115 per cent of GDP (as against 16 per cent in Australia), and rising rapidly. And the banks would not lend more.
    ''

    Greece wasn't a victim of some larger Financial crisis. Greece's problems are directly related to the fact that it's expenditures increased exponentially ( On entitlements and Govt wages and giveaways ) while it's revenues fell. And to bridge the budget Gaps it borrowed massive amounts of money from Foreign creditors while refusing to offer up a accurate representation of it's debt.
    Why did its revenues fall? Ever think of that? Plus it is a political opinion piece that stinks of right wing ideology devoid of actual facts. You do know that the US public sector employment is larger than the Greek right? Doubt you would find that nugget of information in any Anglo-American news outlets.

    Greece chose to inject massive amounts of borrowed money into a bloated Public Sector that produced NOTHING of value. So without production of a product that could increase revenues via exports and taxes they chose to throw that capital away.
    So you are one of those that think the public sector produces nothing of value and public sector workers dont have real jobs? And "bloated".. that has been disproved. Corrupt and full of fraud.. yes, but bloated no.

    In a desperate and unprincipled attempt to circumvent their financial responsibility, on of the first things the new Greek PM chose to do was to manufacturer claims of " War crimes " by their largest creditor, the German Government.
    Again false. The first one to float that idea, was the last right wing government...2 years ago. But back then it was barely mentioned, but when a leftie floats the idea then it is all over the place and being promoted by right wingers..

    Greek Commission Concludes Germany Owes Billions in War Reparations - SPIEGEL ONLINE

    2013... long before the new government.. and when the New Democracy was in power.. you know the right wing.

    And to be fair.. they do have a point, at least on some of the issues.

    It would seem corruption is a systemic problem in Greece.
    LOL where have you been the last 1500+ years?

    Greece lied to get into the EU
    No they did not. Greece met the requirements when it became a member of the EEC in 1981. Where it possibly "Fixed the books" was its membership of the Euro.. that investigation is not exactly finished. Personally I think they did fiddle with the books but kicking them out now would hurt them as well as the rest of Europe.

    once in they took advantage of their status as a member and distributed their worthless bonds throughout European Banks as they violated the Maastricht Treaty's limits on Deficit spending until they could not hide their financial issues anymore.
    LOL that is not exactly how things work. What they did was hide the true economic situation and debt with the help of American banks, and hence manipulated their bond yields. The banks with the exception of the 2 American banks involved in the fraud, were duped pure and simple like the rest of us.

    Their creditors offered plans to help Greece AND to save the Euro and now, the NEW Greek PM is pulling this corrupt, low life attempt to screw over his Countries creditors. No, nothing has changed in Greece.
    And you base this on what? You do know who their creditors are right?
    PeteEU

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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    Thats what I just asked you to do.
    You are making the claim..

    You claimed that a recession made the GDP% higher but it has had the opposite effect in the US, our GDP % was the highest it ever was when our economy was they best it ever was
    Eh? Not sure I understand what you wrote there. My point is, while the US GDP went down slightly and has since gone up, the Greek GDP has lost 1/3 of its value in the same period. Hence anything in % of GDP will be seriously effected.

    You cant include state and local numbers when they vary so greatly, I pay almost nothing in state and local taxes since my state has zero income tax, no sales tax on necessity items and I can buy my big ticket items online with no tax.
    Then you cant compare US numbers to anyone, since Greek numbers, and any European numbers include state and local numbers.

    US 2.3% of GDP lost in taxes
    Sweden 8.9%
    Denmark 8.7%
    Norway 7.7%
    Finland 7.5%

    http://www.tackletaxhavens.com/Cost_...d_Nov_2011.pdf
    LOL that is utter bull**** numbers. Why? Because the US tax system is riddled with loop holes that are fully legal but are in reality a tax dodge put in place by special interests. Where as in the other countries those kinds of loopholes are rare and the tax system is far more transparent. I would wager that the tax dodging in the US is massive.. you just called it legal loopholes and accounting principles. The end result is the same.. you claim 30% tax rate but only pay 15% at the end of the day.. the US tax system is rotten to the core.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Why did its revenues fall? Ever think of that? Plus it is a political opinion piece that stinks of right wing ideology devoid of actual facts. You do know that the US public sector employment is larger than the Greek right? Doubt you would find that nugget of information in any Anglo-American news outlets.



    So you are one of those that think the public sector produces nothing of value and public sector workers dont have real jobs? And "bloated".. that has been disproved. Corrupt and full of fraud.. yes, but bloated no.



    Again false. The first one to float that idea, was the last right wing government...2 years ago. But back then it was barely mentioned, but when a leftie floats the idea then it is all over the place and being promoted by right wingers..

    Greek Commission Concludes Germany Owes Billions in War Reparations - SPIEGEL ONLINE

    2013... long before the new government.. and when the New Democracy was in power.. you know the right wing.

    And to be fair.. they do have a point, at least on some of the issues.



    LOL where have you been the last 1500+ years?



    No they did not. Greece met the requirements when it became a member of the EEC in 1981. Where it possibly "Fixed the books" was its membership of the Euro.. that investigation is not exactly finished. Personally I think they did fiddle with the books but kicking them out now would hurt them as well as the rest of Europe.



    LOL that is not exactly how things work. What they did was hide the true economic situation and debt with the help of American banks, and hence manipulated their bond yields. The banks with the exception of the 2 American banks involved in the fraud, were duped pure and simple like the rest of us.



    And you base this on what? You do know who their creditors are right?
    No, the Public Sector produces service, but nothing that can be sold, exported and taxed.

    Therefore, they produce nothing of value when it comes to increasing revenue.

    Greece grew their public sector exponentially up to 2008, and borrowed to fill in the budget gaps under the pretense that they were well within the limits of the Treaty THEY signed to get into the Union

    There was nothing " right wing " about what they did.

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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    Perhaps they just need to learn how to live within their means like we need to do. If the people want more than that after it is extablished, then tax them for it.

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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    No, the Public Sector produces service, but nothing that can be sold, exported and taxed.
    What? So public service employees dont pay taxes? They dont buy stuff and pay taxes? Public companies dont export stuff or sell stuff? That paying fees for access to various things is not "selling"? So when the US telecoms just bought access to frequencies, then this was not selling stuff?

    Therefore, they produce nothing of value when it comes to increasing revenue.
    Are you sure?

    Greece grew their public sector exponentially up to 2008
    It did? Define exponentially, because normally that means 1 to 2.. 2 to 4... 4 to 8... if I am not wrong?

    and borrowed to fill in the budget gaps under the pretense that they were well within the limits of the Treaty THEY signed to get into the Union
    Now that is fraud and we know that. And no one has been punished for this anywhere.. now if it stood to me, then everyone involved in the fraud would be behind bars and their companies sized.

    There was nothing " right wing " about what they did.
    LOL it had everything to do with right wing ideology.... just like the whole sub-prime crapper was based on right wing ideology.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Not if that tax evasion was the reason for you spending more money than you were receiving. If you budget 100 dollars income, but only get 80 because someone did not pay your full amount.. whos fault is that?
    After a few decades it becomes the state's fault. They could budget for the expected rate of return but choose not to.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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