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Thread: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    The IMF has intentionally destroyed most countries that they have loaned money to. They loan unrealistic amounts to deperate countries then want the resources of that country and austerity to starve the people. The elitists dont want some of what people have worked for, they want it all.
    "

    The IMF bails out rich bankers, creating a moral hazard and greater instability in the global economy

    The IMF routinely pushes countries to deregulate financial systems. The removal of regulations that might limit speculation has greatly increased capital investment in developing country financial markets. More than $1.5 trillion crosses borders every day. Most of this capital is invested short-term, putting countries at the whim of financial speculators. The Mexican 1995 peso crisis was partly a result of these IMF policies. When the bubble popped, the IMF and US government stepped in to prop up interest and exchange rates, using taxpayer money to bail out Wall Street bankers. Such bailouts encourage investors to continue making risky, speculative bets, thereby increasing the instability of national economies. During the bailout of Asian countries, the IMF required governments to assume the bad debts of private banks, thus making the public pay the costs and draining yet more resources away from social programs."
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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    ...
    What's funny is to watch the socialists complain that tax collection is the problem... it wasn't before the socialists got in. The country was doing fine for decades as the article I linked to illustrated.

    In come the socialist schemes, the perversion of society, and THE BIG PROBLEMS... but the socialists claim it's not the dimwitted socialists schemes that are at fault... The Police State isn't strong enough... which is what you need for socialism to work... FORCE.

    Socialism is a sick ideology in so many ways... and now we see the worst of it appear... USSR... KGB styled spying of citizens... on citizens. It's vile, but that's the bitter fruit of socialism.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

  3. #23
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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    They didn't bribe... they sold stolen info to the Germans.
    That is not true in every case. At least in one that I checked out at the time, the German officials negotiating the deal specified what they wanted to have for the money and the bribed person went back and got more detail. I was led to understand that this was the case in other deals, but know so only for one. What is interesting is that the finance officials have no legal mandate to bribe foreigners to steal data and commit industrial espionage. This was different in the first data deal, which was as you say the purchase of a CD by the BND, which does have a legal mandate to do such transactions. The later ones were transacted by domestic clerks, however, who had no legal basis to commission theft in a foreign country. Furthermore, the data purchase would have been totally illegal, had it been commissioned in a domestic bank. The administration is constitutionally not allowed to have access to that type of data.

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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    I'd place the blame on the person who optimistly thought that they were going to get 100 dollars when history indicated that they would most likely get 80 dollars.
    But the problem here is, that it might be 80, it might be 70, or 90, or 50.. what do you budget after if the income is so all over the place?

    Socialism works backwards from reality. If I have an income of 100 dollars, then I will budget my expenses based on that income, and I will decide which of my desires have the highest priority and eliminate the lowest priority expenses. Socialism on the other hand does the opposite. It never occurs to a socialist that something can be done without.
    The only thing out of reality is conservative thinking in the 21st century.
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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    You only spend what you take in... you don't spend based on fantasy income. You see... that's the beauty of Limited Government and individual responsibility instead of the state being Mommy Dearest... mistakes are small.
    LOL typical American right wing kitchen sink bull**** theory. How can you only spend what you take in when your income comes in AFTER you have spent? You dont seem to understand how companies and governments work.. they do not work like a freaking household.

    America's Socialists are just as guilty of this idiocy. It explains how we have 17TRILLION in debt and 60TRILLION in unfunded liabilities.
    Yea those damn socialists like Reagan and Bush right?
    PeteEU

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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    What's funny is to watch the socialists complain that tax collection is the problem... it wasn't before the socialists got in. The country was doing fine for decades as the article I linked to illustrated.
    LOL it was not.. the article is utter bull****. Tax collection has been a problem in Greece for hundreds of years. The difference is that, before the state could just print money to make up the difference and let inflation eat away at the debt. They cant do that any more.

    In come the socialist schemes, the perversion of society, and THE BIG PROBLEMS... but the socialists claim it's not the dimwitted socialists schemes that are at fault... The Police State isn't strong enough... which is what you need for socialism to work... FORCE.
    Funny a right winger complaining about a police state..
    PeteEU

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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Well take a look at the numbers again. Let me give you a hint.. when something is % of GDP.. remember to take any changes in GDP into account. That is why the numbers are silly and useless.
    once GDP and revenues are calculated they are a static number, there might be some dispute over what that number is but its minor. GDP % is a great number for comparisons because it you can compare different countries with vastly different populations and changes in GDP and inflation from year to year will not hinder the comparison.

    You can look at the USA and pretty much every year since WW2 our tax receipts have been between 15-20% of GDP, it clearly works great as a comparrison tool to those who understand basic math. To those who dont it can seem scary, confusing and even stupid

    Typical right wing bull****. The problem is that the Greeks are not paying their taxes pure and simple. Stop denying the freaking obvious.

    Tax evasion in Greece: In flagrante | The Economist
    Say what... how can that be?
    Cool so Greeks just make up their income as they go when reporting to the Greek IRS.. can you do that in the US?
    You are denying the obvious. Can you really not see the correlation between higher taxes and a higher tax evasion rate? As your first article points out, tax evasion is not only a problem in Greece but all of Europe. Wonder why? On average the EU (especially the EU 18) has on average twice the % of gdp revenue in taxes than the US.

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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Has absolutely nothing to do with socialism. Tax evasion in Greece is a national sport and has been since the Ottomans were in charge. It was one of the main ways to "stick it to the Ottomans" so to say. Tax evasion is the reason Greece got into the situation they are in.
    But Tax evasion has little to do with any of this. Massive spending and borrowing and corruption and all to prop up a ever expanding public sector is why Greece is bankrupt.
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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    once GDP and revenues are calculated they are a static number, there might be some dispute over what that number is but its minor. GDP % is a great number for comparisons because it you can compare different countries with vastly different populations and changes in GDP and inflation from year to year will not hinder the comparison.
    Dude... have you looked at Greek GDP for the last 10 years? And compared that to other countries?

    You can look at the USA and pretty much every year since WW2 our tax receipts have been between 15-20% of GDP, it clearly works great as a comparrison tool to those who understand basic math. To those who dont it can seem scary, confusing and even stupid
    And that is not correct.

    First off the Greek numbers.

    http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs...92-2014_en.pdf

    33%ish

    But there is an interesting comment in this article

    Tax revenue statistics - government revenue from taxes and social contributions - Statistics Explained

    In Greece, absolute tax revenue continued to decrease in 2012. However, the further decrease in GDP in 2012 led to an increase in the tax-to-GDP ratio.
    That is why the tax to GDP ratio is problematic. Greek GDP has collapsed relatively more than tax revenue, which pushes up the % more. Now this could automatically level it self out over time, but that time has not yet gone by.

    Secondly US number you quote.. correct some what for.. Federal, but not total... you left out local and state taxes, plus I believe also things like SS and other contributions are not part of the number. If those are added then you get to around 30% as well.

    You are denying the obvious. Can you really not see the correlation between higher taxes and a higher tax evasion rate? As your first article points out, tax evasion is not only a problem in Greece but all of Europe. Wonder why? On average the EU (especially the EU 18) has on average twice the % of gdp revenue in taxes than the US.
    Well if we say that higher taxes gives higher evasion, then tax evasion must be running rampant in Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland... no wait it is not, they are in fact some of the best tax collecting countries on the planet, because unlike the US and Greeks, they have a simple administrative system in place that makes collection and reporting easy, simple and automatic.

    And you constantly forget that the EU tax numbers are for national, state and local ... where as the US numbers are more than often only for the Federal part, leaving out state and local government.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Greece Proposes Using Tourists as Tax Spies to Fill Shortfall

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    But Tax evasion has little to do with any of this. Massive spending and borrowing and corruption and all to prop up a ever expanding public sector is why Greece is bankrupt.
    Yes that is the narrative that we have been spoon fed by mostly American owned news organisations.. but is it the truth?

    Now the corruption part is true, Greece is very corrupt. But corruptions comes when an economy collapses.. we have seen it time and time again. But there is corruption everywhere, and the further you get from central control the worse it gets.. even in the US. Fixing this is not easy and cant be done over a few years. For example, tax evasion among doctors, and other professionals is massive in Greece. However when government wanted to tackle this problem, they were blocked in parliament.. why? Because a lot of the elected officials came from these very professions.

    Borrowing.. yes all countries borrow. The problem here was that Greece lied with the help of American banks. Their debt was not big, but because they could not be trusted due to the lying, then the debt became very risky... was there more? It is the same with the American sub-prime collapse and the credit crunch. Banks did not know what they had on their books because of all the "creative capitalism" that had been going on for a decade.. they had no idea if the 1000 mortgages they owned were even worth what was on the paper. Hence risk went up, and credit dried up.

    Massive spending.. really, are you sure about that? Sure there is fraud and waste, but "massive spending"... the numbers dont exactly back that up, especially when compared to other countries.

    General government final consumption expenditure (% of GDP) | Data | Table

    In 2001 Greek spending in % of GDP (yes it is a stupid measure since GDP can go up and down) was 18.2 %. US was 14.5% .. but notice this does not include military spending.

    In 2013 Greek spending in % of GDP was 20%... but remember GDP has gone down considerably. The US was 15.2.

    Now the question is of course if the US numbers include local and state spending as well.. that is unclear.

    Point is, there was not "massive spending" as we have been told. Bad spending, fraud and corruption.... yes, but "massive overspending" .. not really.

    This brings us back to taxes. According to reports, in one year half of the deficit was related to tax evasion.. now that is a lot. In 2009 the dodged taxes was at least 28 billion euros.. at least.

    So you can blame overspending, waste and what not, but 1/3 to 1/2 of your deficit is due to people not paying their taxes, then this tax dodging problem is just as important if not more.

    The Greek problem is and always has been a problem of corruption and tax dodging, not as much on overspending.
    PeteEU

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