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Thread: They look like a new boy band... but it's the world's first THREE-WAY same-sex marria

  1. #201
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    Re: They look like a new boy band... but it's the world's first THREE-WAY same-sex ma

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    I have already explained why.

    If we privative marriage, then no one can stop two adult males from marrying, or two adult females from marrying. Without government enforcement, no one can mandate or control the use of the terms "marriage" or "civil union." This amounts to the legalization of same-sex marriage, which is explicitly what the anti-SSM folks are fighting.

    Thus... it's not neutral. It's a victory for SSM.


    yes, but now you have 14th amendment protection, explicitly. third parties objecting to contracts based on who people are? won't fly. they have no say.

    at the same time. a church or whoever who is against it can claim victory as they can say "We don't recognize any gay marriage", and no one would be the worse off for it.
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    Re: They look like a new boy band... but it's the world's first THREE-WAY same-sex ma

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    What makes anyone who gets "special recognition" by the tax authorities different than everyone else? Their choices to do something that is viewed as beneficial to society in some way.
    Well, I can see how taking care of dependants can be viewed as beneficial to society; it would cost the state far more in caring for the young, elderly or inform than the cost of tax credits to those who assume that responsibility. In what way does being married benefit the wider society?
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  3. #203
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    Re: They look like a new boy band... but it's the world's first THREE-WAY same-sex ma

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    yes, but now you have 14th amendment protection....
    First, it is arguable that SSM is already protected by the 14th Amendment. Lower courts have already overturned anti-SSM laws on that basis, and some court observers expect the SCOTUS to do so as well.

    Second, you're assuming that this change will somehow magically pass without anyone saying "Boo." My point is that will never happen, because the anti-SSM activists will fight against legislation they perceive as legalizing SSM.

    Third, most government management of marriage happens on the state level, not the federal level. Getting government "out of the marriage business" would require extended political battles in most or all 50 states -- and, we should note, would replace civil marriage with a complex and dizzying array of contracts. We should also note that this could result in making divorces even messier, more complex, more expensive and more emotionally fraught than it is already, since an embittered spouse could fight over a half-dozen contracts.


    at the same time. a church or whoever who is against it can claim victory as they can say "We don't recognize any gay marriage", and no one would be the worse off for it.
    It won't be a victory for any anti-SSM advocates, because SSM would be legal.

    US governments do not, and cannot, require religious organizations to recognize SSM, admit homosexuals, perform funerals for homosexuals, or even recognize a same-sex union in a funeral ceremony. The government cannot force the RCC to overturn an excommunication on the basis of sexual preference.

    In addition, even federal legalization of SSM has no effect on discrimination laws. Federal law does not currently provide protection on the basis of sexual orientation, and that would require an act of Congress. The dust-ups over discrimination suits and public accommodation laws are in states that explicitly passed laws outlawing discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

    Thus, your solution is not neutral. It is a decisive loss for the anti-SSM community.

  4. #204
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    Re: They look like a new boy band... but it's the world's first THREE-WAY same-sex ma

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Well, I can see how taking care of dependants can be viewed as beneficial to society; it would cost the state far more in caring for the young, elderly or inform than the cost of tax credits to those who assume that responsibility. In what way does being married benefit the wider society?
    Because there are adults who lose their job, for one, or become sick. If they are married, the spouse has basically voluntarily said they should have the first responsibility for that person. This is why your legal spouse's income is taken into account when asking for assistance from the government.

    I know someone who married a person who was quadriplegic. It happened as a young adult and was an accident from doing something immature. Although he got SS, if she had not married him, the government would have been paying more money for him to live in assisted living. (It wasn't a marriage of convenience though, they did love each other. He passed away last year.) my husband and I have both been out of work during our marriage but didn't really need help from the government because of the support of the other spouse.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: They look like a new boy band... but it's the world's first THREE-WAY same-sex ma

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Because there are adults who lose their job, for one, or become sick. If they are married, the spouse has basically voluntarily said they should have the first responsibility for that person. This is why your legal spouse's income is taken into account when asking for assistance from the government.

    I know someone who married a person who was quadriplegic. It happened as a young adult and was an accident from doing something immature. Although he got SS, if she had not married him, the government would have been paying more money for him to live in assisted living. (It wasn't a marriage of convenience though, they did love each other. He passed away last year.) my husband and I have both been out of work during our marriage but didn't really need help from the government because of the support of the other spouse.

    When my husband became disabled, it took several years to get him onto social security disability. If he hadn't had me to take care of him and the bills, no idea what he would have done. General assistance? food stamps? subsidized housing?

    I also paid some expenses for his kids (who lived with their mom).

    So I agree, marriage does help remove costs from society.

  6. #206
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    Re: They look like a new boy band... but it's the world's first THREE-WAY same-sex ma

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    When my husband became disabled, it took several years to get him onto social security disability. If he hadn't had me to take care of him and the bills, no idea what he would have done. General assistance? food stamps? subsidized housing?

    I also paid some expenses for his kids (who lived with their mom).

    So I agree, marriage does help remove costs from society.
    Spouse is the only legal relationship that I absolutely know of where two people agree to voluntarily be each other's legal relative and take on certain mutual responsibilities for each other (although there are some rare cases of an adult being adopted, but it is very rare and a different type of relationship). All other legal kin have one person at least in the relationship that did not actually choose the legal bond (even if most would if they could have).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: They look like a new boy band... but it's the world's first THREE-WAY same-sex ma

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Because there are adults who lose their job, for one, or become sick. If they are married, the spouse has basically voluntarily said they should have the first responsibility for that person. This is why your legal spouse's income is taken into account when asking for assistance from the government.

    I know someone who married a person who was quadriplegic. It happened as a young adult and was an accident from doing something immature. Although he got SS, if she had not married him, the government would have been paying more money for him to live in assisted living. (It wasn't a marriage of convenience though, they did love each other. He passed away last year.) my husband and I have both been out of work during our marriage but didn't really need help from the government because of the support of the other spouse.
    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    When my husband became disabled, it took several years to get him onto social security disability. If he hadn't had me to take care of him and the bills, no idea what he would have done. General assistance? food stamps? subsidized housing?

    I also paid some expenses for his kids (who lived with their mom).

    So I agree, marriage does help remove costs from society.
    Doesn't the same apply to co-habitees? It certainly does here. Anyone applying for means-tested benefits is assessed on household income i.e whoever lives under the same roof. If you have a working-age son or daughter living with you, their income gets assessed too.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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  8. #208
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    Re: They look like a new boy band... but it's the world's first THREE-WAY same-sex ma

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Doesn't the same apply to co-habitees? It certainly does here. Anyone applying for means-tested benefits is assessed on household income i.e whoever lives under the same roof. If you have a working-age son or daughter living with you, their income gets assessed too.
    There still is not the same responsibility to take care of that person. And it depends on the type of relationship claimed by the people.

    Take the case from Washington. The man claimed the woman was simply a rentee, so the government was paying her rent, which went to him, until they found out they were legally married.

    Welfare fraud investigators raid $1.2 million Lake Washington home - seattlepi.com

    They could have actually gotten away with this had they not gotten married, at least for longer.

    Plus, spouses do not have to share the residence to be means tested together. Your legal spouse is responsible to take care of you even if they don't live with you before the government steps in. Example when it comes to means testing for bankruptcy:

    “Current Monthly Income” for the Bankruptcy Means Test | Nolo.com
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: They look like a new boy band... but it's the world's first THREE-WAY same-sex ma

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Doesn't the same apply to co-habitees? It certainly does here. Anyone applying for means-tested benefits is assessed on household income i.e whoever lives under the same roof. If you have a working-age son or daughter living with you, their income gets assessed too.
    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    There still is not the same responsibility to take care of that person. And it depends on the type of relationship claimed by the people.

    Take the case from Washington. The man claimed the woman was simply a rentee, so the government was paying her rent, which went to him, until they found out they were legally married.

    Welfare fraud investigators raid $1.2 million Lake Washington home - seattlepi.com

    They could have actually gotten away with this had they not gotten married, at least for longer.

    Plus, spouses do not have to share the residence to be means tested together. Your legal spouse is responsible to take care of you even if they don't live with you before the government steps in. Example when it comes to means testing for bankruptcy:

    “Current Monthly Income” for the Bankruptcy Means Test | Nolo.com

    I hadn't ever thought about people who co-habitted. Interesting question, interesting info. thanks.

  10. #210
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    Re: They look like a new boy band... but it's the world's first THREE-WAY same-sex ma

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    I hadn't ever thought about people who co-habitted. Interesting question, interesting info. thanks.
    I think everyone just assumes that all married people live together, in the same home. This isn't true for a small number of people for various reasons.

    But there's more to it too. Take for instance when someone dies. If I am that persons legal spouse, it will be my responsibility to take care of my spouses remains barring any other legal documentation to the contrary. However a girlfriend or boyfriend or cohabitee doesn't have that same responsibility. That falls to the legal family.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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