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Thread: Dr. Ben Carson Apologizes For Saying Being Gay Is a Choice

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    Re: Dr. Ben Carson Apologizes For Saying Being Gay Is a Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Crosscheck View Post
    True, it will not change one vote for or against him. It just shows how this guy is not ready for prime time. But he promises to bring some comedy to the doldrums of this electrion
    Right...because the best he can expect is a handful of votes in the primaries..

    As educated a she may be, Sarah Palin has a better chance of being president, I do not know why you people have to go on advertising him....maybe it takes your mind off lyin Hillary
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
    Donald Trump, 11/23/17

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    Re: Dr. Ben Carson Apologizes For Saying Being Gay Is a Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    So the federal government can only protect the first ten amendments of the constitution? What about the 14th, which mandates equal treatment under the law? And not only that but enforcement of said equality treatment is specifically delegated, in the amendment itself even, to the federal government.

    So it's not silly, it's a legitimate question.
    Rights are created by government. They are not created by you claiming they exist. As states grant the right to gay marriage, they exist in the states where the right was granted. The Federal government has created protections which go beyond the Bill of rights, you should know that.
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

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    Re: Dr. Ben Carson Apologizes For Saying Being Gay Is a Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    Rights are created by government. They are not created by you claiming they exist.
    Our rights were endowed to us by our creator. Rights are not gifts from government. The 9th amendment acknowledges this when it establishes that that just because certain rights aren't enumerated doesn't mean they don't exist. And the Declaration of Independence was written with such a concept of matural rights in mind.

    As states grant the right to gay marriage, they exist in the states where the right was granted. The Federal government has created protections which go beyond the Bill of rights, you should know that.
    The Bill of Rights is just a name for the first ten amendments to the Constitution. They are no more or less legitimate than the 11th or the 12th or the 13th. Or, in this case, the 14th. The 14th amendment was ratified legally and legitimately, therefore it is an official part of the US Constitution. Any infringement upon it, which includes gay marriage bans, is unconstitutional.

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    Re: Dr. Ben Carson Apologizes For Saying Being Gay Is a Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    Our rights were endowed to us by our creator. Rights are not gifts from government. The 9th amendment acknowledges this when it establishes that that just because certain rights aren't enumerated doesn't mean they don't exist. And the Declaration of Independence was written with such a concept of matural rights in mind.



    The Bill of Rights is just a name for the first ten amendments to the Constitution. They are no more or less legitimate than the 11th or the 12th or the 13th. Or, in this case, the 14th. The 14th amendment was ratified legally and legitimately, therefore it is an official part of the US Constitution. Any infringement upon it, which includes gay marriage bans, is unconstitutional.
    If your rights come from God, explain the one male child policy in China. Did God skip over the right to life in China as a means of population control?
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

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    Re: Dr. Ben Carson Apologizes For Saying Being Gay Is a Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Doesn't matter how many times you dance around and claim a given,
    I'm not claiming a given. I'm pointing out two things which are facts

    1) Marriage is a fundamental right

    2) Carson has said he believes gays should have equal rights

    it's still a circular argument because the Supreme Court has not, as yet, ruled on whether or not SSM is a fundamental right as you claim. Until they do, based on the current law and as even noted in the DOMA ruling, the states determine who is married and who isn't under their individual laws. In DOMA, they just ruled that the federal government couldn't deny a State's interpretation of marriage.
    You are trying to argue that something might make sense because SCOTUS hasn't ruled on it yet. That is an absurd argument. Logic doesn't require a SCOTUS ruling. SCOTUS rulings determine what the law is or how it is applied, but it doesn't dictate logic.

    I appreciate that you don't want to accept that or that you don't want to accept that my opinion is based on the rule of law as it exists today, not as you or I may wish it to be. Doesn't change facts on the ground, however.

    I believe the Supreme Court will rule in favour of SSM. It is possible, however, that they will rule that one State's definition cannot infringe on the rights of other States to make their own determination, even if that may infringe on an individual's right of access to federal benefits.
    Regardless of how SCOTUS rules, if marriage is a fundamental right (and it is) and if gays should have equal rights (and Carson believes they do) then denying them the right to marry is a denial of equal rights. Now it is possible that SCOTUS will decide that states govts have a constitutionally valid reason for denying gays this right but that is not the argument that Carson is making.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Dr. Ben Carson Apologizes For Saying Being Gay Is a Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    While I may agree with you, it's not a given. It could also be argued that one State's or several State's definition of marriage may bind the federal government and how it treats married people in that State, it may not bind the ability of another State to determine what marriage is within its borders.
    No, that can't happen. The rights' obsession with "definitions" has no legal weight to it. It's a political argument, not a legal one.States are not free to define anything however they want to if it denies individuals their constitutional rights. Rights can only be limited or denied under certain conditions. The issue in these lawsuits, in almost every case, is whether a govt (be it local, state, or federal) has a legitimate interest in denying this right to same sex couples.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Dr. Ben Carson Apologizes For Saying Being Gay Is a Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Agreed - and my point was that it really isn't settled law because the Supreme Court has never opined on SSM. Until they do, it's open to interpretation at lower levels and at the State level. Thus, it's not a given that SSM will be ruled as a fundamental right as some are claiming, although I may agree with that interpretation.
    fundamental rights are not something that some people (ie opposite sex couples) have while others (same sex couples) do not. Everyone has the right to marry. The issue is whether or not the govt has the power to limit the right to marry when the couple is of the same sex. In order to limit a fundamental right, the govt has to show that it has a legitimate interest in doing so. So far, no one has been able to demonstrate that such limitations serve any legitimate govt interest.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Dr. Ben Carson Apologizes For Saying Being Gay Is a Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    The Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment may or may not be the basis of a Supreme Court decision on same-sex marriage. But the guarantee of equal protection is not as simple-minded as you imagine. Hundreds of thousands of laws all over the U.S. impose all sorts of disadvantages on specified groups of people every day without raising any equal protection issue. Just think of all those poor, persecuted polygamists!

    Anyone who thinks the guarantee of equal protection of the laws is to be taken literally and applied universally should read Nordlinger v. Hahn, in which the Supreme Court upheld California's Proposition 13. The Court held that law did not violate the guarantee of equal protection, even though it required a homeowner to pay a far larger property tax than another homeowner with an almost identical property nearby. Guess that means the Constitution isn't worth the parchment it's written on.
    In the cases of polygamy and Prop 13, the govt has a legitimate interest in limiting the rights of some people. When it comes to limiting the right to marry to opposite sex couples, what legitimate govt interest is being served?

    From the Prop 13 decision
    We hold that the acquisition value assessment scheme does not violate the Equal Protection Clause.

    The clause requires only that the classification rationally furthers a legitimate state interest.

    The right to travel is not involved in this case.

    We detect at least two legitimate state interests: One is in preserving continuity and stability in neighborhood preservation: the other is that a new owner does not have the same reliance interest warranting protection against higher taxes as does an existing owner.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Dr. Ben Carson Apologizes For Saying Being Gay Is a Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    If your rights come from God
    I never said they came from God. I said they came from our creator, which could just be nature.

    explain the one male child policy in China. Did God skip over the right to life in China as a means of population control?
    Just because you have a right, doesn't mean it is impossible for a government to infringe on it.

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    Re: Dr. Ben Carson Apologizes For Saying Being Gay Is a Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    If you actually read what I've written, with respect to rights, some rights are protected by the Federal government. The Bill of Rights outlines some of those protections. The founders left what is not protected Federally up to the states. Justice Louis Brandeis said that states are the laboratories of democracy. That which is not a Federal responsibility was left to the states. Your question by the way is silly.
    No, that is not true

    *ALL* rights are protected, not by the federal govt but by the constitution. The protection offered by the constitution is a limit on the power of govt (at all levels) to limit rights. Specifically, the govt can limit rights but only if it can show that doing so furthers a legitimate interest of govt.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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