Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Ferguson

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

US Conservative said:

I really would like to see more libs do that.

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Are you really saying that not enough liberals spend time on a community ride along?
Or that liberals don't work for or with the police?

Its remarkable that they love govt but not the enforcement arm of said govt.

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This again--you saying that liberals don't love the enforcement arm of the government as a blanket statement .

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

NIMBY said:

Are you really saying that not enough liberals spend time on a community ride along?
Or that liberals don't work for or with the police?



This again--you saying that liberals don't love the enforcement arm of the government as a blanket statement .

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Nimby, of course there are exceptions, Im speaking to the rule.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

I don't consider myself to be closed-minded at all and I don't think I have a problem seeing it from the other side. The issue isn't usually the police officers themselves, it's the systematic way that race is used to determine whether or not laws will be enforced. A documentary that deals with this issue and spends a lot of time following law enforcement in is The House I Live In, which you can watch on Netflix if you'd like to see this issue from the other side. The documentary demonstrates that we have used to war on drugs to make billions of dollars off of our prisons system, even though the prison system is not at all effective at treating drug use or drug addiction. It also shows how poor black communities are targeted by law enforcement. It makes a very compelling argument.

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:naughty
Convoluted thoughts do not make for reality.

Mustachio said:

Another poster had statistics saying the rate of marijuana use is lower among black people than for white people. But we do arrest black people at 11.5X the rate as white people for marijuana possession.

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:naughty

Numbers based on (self reporting) of criminal activity are not numbers to be considered valid.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

dirtpoorchris said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/05/opinion/charles-blow-the-feds-vs-ferguson.html?_r=1



What the **** is "manner of walking"?

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Literally "walking while black," it seems.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

My question for many here is - Why are you trying SO hard ignore clear discriminatory behavior committed by the Ferguson police department? What's in it for you to discount this clearly illegal behavior?

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Tettsuo said:

My question for many here is - Why are you trying SO hard ignore clear discriminatory behavior committed by the Ferguson police department? What's in it for you to discount this clearly illegal behavior?

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Idk, more city destroying riots I guess.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Excon said:

Convoluted thoughts do not make for reality.

Numbers based on (self reporting) of criminal activity are not numbers to be considered valid.

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Convoluted? Police target black communities. Black people are more likely to be arrested than white people for the same crime. Those aren't thoughts, they're facts, and facts are reality. I don't know what you're trying to say with the second sentence, but unless you're going to argue that a black person is roughly 10 times more likely to use marijuana than a white person, it doesn't make any sense.

eohrnberger said:

Yes, the law should be equally applied. Right after the propensity for being involved in violent crime reaches the same level between the two populations.

Far too many blacks being incarcerated? Got a great idea. Why not let black gang murderers off with a warning? I'm sure that'd reduce that population.

The reality here is that it goes both ways. The respect that the police receive, or don't, is the same respect that they return. How about curbing various people's disrespect of the law and of the police? Could only help matters, don't you think?

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I'm not talking about violent crime and I'm not talking about "black gang murderers." Oh man, I can't believe I'm actually responding to a person who said "black gang murderers." Like I said, a study done in New York showed that only 3% of the thousands who were charged with drug possession went on to have a felony charge for a violent crime. We're targeting black communities are arresting black people at a disproportionate rate for NON-VIOLENT crimes. So if 9 in 10 prisoners in America are behind bars for a non-violent crime and the vast majority have never and will never commit a violent crime, what does that say?

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

US Conservative said:

Show me the policies, across the patchwork of cities and towns in the US that say to target someone based on race.

As for the whole violent vs non violent criminals in jail, I see that as a different issue, but I can tell you that here in liberal california-its typically repeat offenders that get put in jail. We implemented the 3 strikes law to remove repeat criminals from society and it worked well in lowering crime rates.

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I don't want to have a circular argument so I'm going to be brief and I edited your post to avoid repetition. The statistics show that across the United States, black people are arrested for, charged with, and put in jail for non-violent crimes at a higher rate than white people. For the same charge, a black person is more likely to go to prison than a white person. For the same charge, a black person is more likely to be arrested for the same crime (IE possession of marijuana). I have already provided that information, so I don't understand why you're asking me to show you something that I've already shown you.

The documentary I mentioned addresses the 3 strike law. It is incredibly stupid, by the way. Drug addicts should receive rehabilitation, not a life sentence. Rehabilitating an addict and making them a productive member of society is infinitely better than spending our tax dollars to keep a non-violent offender in prison for the rest of their life. Let's let judges decide what the punishment should be instead of letting our state and federal legislative branches decide.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

I don't want to have a circular argument so I'm going to be brief and I edited your post to avoid repetition. The statistics show that across the United States, black people are arrested for, charged with, and put in jail for non-violent crimes at a higher rate than white people. For the same charge, a black person is more likely to go to prison than a white person. For the same charge, a black person is more likely to be arrested for the same crime (IE possession of marijuana). I have already provided that information, so I don't understand why you're asking me to show you something that I've already shown you.

The documentary I mentioned addresses the 3 strike law. It is incredibly stupid, by the way. Drug addicts should receive rehabilitation, not a life sentence. Rehabilitating an addict and making them a productive member of society is infinitely better than spending our tax dollars to keep a non-violent offender in prison for the rest of their life. Let's let judges decide what the punishment should be instead of letting our state and federal legislative branches decide.

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3 strikes is for repeat offenders, obviously. Like I said the primary job of prisons (note the recidivism rate) is to remove them from society, not rehab them. Im open to programs that are proven to work, but Im not open to letting criminals out, as my governor recently did-with the resultant spike in crime.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Tettsuo said:

My question for many here is - Why are you trying SO hard ignore clear discriminatory behavior committed by the Ferguson police department? What's in it for you to discount this clearly illegal behavior?

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There has been no discriminatory behavior shown.
That is your problem for thinking there is.

---

Mustachio said:

Convoluted? Police target black communities.

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Areas with higher crime rates are targeted. That happens to be black areas.

Mustachio said:

Black people are more likely to be arrested than white people for the same crime.

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And? You absurdly thing the races are equal on these things? :doh

If things were equal, you would see equal averages amongst all the races, but we don't because they aren't.

Mustachio said:

Those aren't thoughts, they're facts, and facts are reality.

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:doh
Yes convoluted. The facts are not contested. What you think the facts show is what is the product of convoluted thoughts.

Mustachio said:

I don't know what you're trying to say with the second sentence, but unless you're going to argue that a black person is roughly 10 times more likely to use marijuana than a white person, it doesn't make any sense.

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Unfortunately facts say they do.

Numbers based on (self reporting) of criminal activity are not numbers to be considered valid. Whether you like that or not, using them is nonsensical.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

"Im so white that when cops pull me over they apologize and write themselves a ticket" Just seen that in a chat room lol.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Excon said:

There has been no discriminatory behavior shown.
That is your problem for thinking there is.
Areas with higher crime rates are targeted. That happens to be black areas.
And? You absurdly thing the races are equal on these things? :doh
If things were equal, you would see equal averages amongst all the races, but we don't because they aren't.
Yes convoluted. The facts are not contested. What you think the facts show is what is the product of convoluted thoughts.
Unfortunately facts say they do.
Numbers based on (self reporting) of criminal activity are not numbers to be considered valid. Whether you like that or not, using them is nonsensical.

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Wow, you aren't a big fan of the truth, are you? You've completely disregarded what's been said over and over again, which is that black people are more likely to be arrested, charged, and convicted for THE SAME CRIME as a white person. You also are claiming that because black people are more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession, therefore they must use marijuana at a higher rate. That is the most obvious fallacy I have ever seen. Congratulations.

You're welcome to provide any or all of the facts that you're alluding to. Otherwise, if I've sourced my claims and you haven't, nobody would or should take anything you say seriously. Especially since you're saying that it is a "fact" that a higher percentage of black Americans use marijuana than white Americans. If you think the statistics are unreliable, then how do you know it's a fact? And how do you account for the fact that studies, no matter when or where they have taken place, have consistently shown approximately the same percentages?

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Don't forget that every person who got pestered by cops for "manner of walking" suspicion just so happened to be black. That sorta seems like the ringer right there.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

I think the politically correct thing to do is consistently enforce laws without taking race into consideration. If you are going to arrest a black man for having a little bit of marijuana, then arrest a white person for having a little bit of marijuana. Better yet, don't arrest a black man for having a little bit of marijuana. Don't arrest black people at 11.5X the rate that you arrest white people for, and remember that this is what i'm talking about, NON-VIOLENT crimes. Filling prisons up with black men who have not committed violent crimes is incredibly stupid and only perpetuates the racial divide in America.

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non violent crimes like dealing drugs, right?

that is what a lot of progressives want....stop arresting the dealers

no....and more so, i want their sentences raised to 15, 20, 25 year stints

you consider dealing drugs no big deal....right?

who got hurt? there is no victim in your minds?

oh how wrong you are.....but i have beaten this dead horse too many times

you and yours will keep fighting to legalize or decriminalize drugs.....

me and mine will fight to have those who deal that poison spend the bulk of their life behind bars

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

gdgyva said:

non violent crimes like dealing drugs, right?
that is what a lot of progressives want....stop arresting the dealers
no....and more so, i want their sentences raised to 15, 20, 25 year stints
you consider dealing drugs no big deal....right?
who got hurt? there is no victim in your minds?
oh how wrong you are.....but i have beaten this dead horse too many times
you and yours will keep fighting to legalize or decriminalize drugs.....
me and mine will fight to have those who deal that poison spend the bulk of their life behind bars

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If you read my posts, I'm actually talking about misdemeanor drug charges, so that would not include drug dealing charges. Even so, the sale of small quantity of marijuana, or any other drug for that matter, shouldn't warrant anything over a year. People who want drugs will be able to get them in this day and age. I never knew any real drug dealers, but I was able to purchase and use drugs for years. I'd prefer we keep our prison cells available for violent offenders, but I'm fine with gang and cartel members being there too.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

If you read my posts, I'm actually talking about misdemeanor drug charges, so that would not include drug dealing charges. Even so, the sale of small quantity of marijuana, or any other drug for that matter, shouldn't warrant anything over a year. People who want drugs will be able to get them in this day and age. I never knew any real drug dealers, but I was able to purchase and use drugs for years. I'd prefer we keep our prison cells available for violent offenders, but I'm fine with gang and cartel members being there too.

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fine

please list the non violent crimes for which you believe that should warrant no prison time

and please also understand this....prison is still a deterrent.....if you take that away from the court system, then what keeps people from committing more and more crimes of that sort?

what is their penalty that they are going to be so afraid of?

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Montecresto said:

We needed the justice department to investigate in order to confirm the obvious!

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Yes, that Wilson is innocent.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

If you read my posts, I'm actually talking about misdemeanor drug charges, so that would not include drug dealing charges. Even so, the sale of small quantity of marijuana, or any other drug for that matter, shouldn't warrant anything over a year. People who want drugs will be able to get them in this day and age. I never knew any real drug dealers, but I was able to purchase and use drugs for years. I'd prefer we keep our prison cells available for violent offenders, but I'm fine with gang and cartel members being there too.

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I don't know what you consider a "real drug dealer" but from where I stand anyone you bought drugs from is a drug dealer. That said, you would have to have a box of weed in my area unless you were picked up by the feds to get a year in jail--okay technically an ounce to be a felony, but the odds of you pulling a year as a first time offender would be remote. Now if this was your 10th conviction, maybe, but then you would still get a day for a day and only do 6 months.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

gdgyva said:

fine

please list the non violent crimes for which you believe that should warrant no prison time

and please also understand this....prison is still a deterrent.....if you take that away from the court system, then what keeps people from committing more and more crimes of that sort?

what is their penalty that they are going to be so afraid of?

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Fraud, such as cashing a false check.
Property damage.
Any DUI that did not involve additional charges
Receiving stolen property
Counterfeiting
Drug possession
Insurance fraud
Obtaining narcotics with a forged prescription
Loitering

That's what I came up with off the top of my head. Drugs are what put most people in prison, though, and I think it's stupid. Laws aren't an effective deterrent for drug use. People have been using drugs in every culture during every period of human history. It is our nature to use drugs. People should avoid drugs so that they can make the most of their life, not because they are afraid of being punished. Fear temporarily motivates people, inspiration lasts much longer.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

If you read my posts, I'm actually talking about misdemeanor drug charges, so that would not include drug dealing charges. Even so, the sale of small quantity of marijuana, or any other drug for that matter, shouldn't warrant anything over a year. People who want drugs will be able to get them in this day and age. I never knew any real drug dealers, but I was able to purchase and use drugs for years. I'd prefer we keep our prison cells available for violent offenders, but I'm fine with gang and cartel members being there too.

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Possession charges do nothing but clog the courts. Less than 3% of marijuana users move on to hard crime, and then usually only after being exposed to the prison system. From reading the above and hearing a full length radio show on CBC on this, clearly blacks are suffering the largest part of enforcement on all charges.

However I believe this is a cause and effect situation, more crime in one area creates more enforcement, high crime also reduces the street level tolerance level.

In either event, this report shows there was cause for the citizens to rise up

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

Fraud, such as cashing a false check.
Property damage.
Any DUI that did not involve additional charges
Receiving stolen property
Counterfeiting
Drug possession
Insurance fraud
Obtaining narcotics with a forged prescription
Loitering

That's what I came up with off the top of my head. Drugs are what put most people in prison, though, and I think it's stupid. Laws aren't an effective deterrent for drug use. People have been using drugs in every culture during every period of human history. It is our nature to use drugs. People should avoid drugs so that they can make the most of their life, not because they are afraid of being punished. Fear temporarily motivates people, inspiration lasts much longer.

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Petty theft
Shop lifting
habitual petty offender
Drug use
simple trespass.
loitering
underage liquor
any crime that is committed in the need to stay alive. A man breaking into a summer cabin in the dead of winter because he is freezing and starving should not even be charged.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

Fraud, such as cashing a false check.
Property damage.
Any DUI that did not involve additional charges
Receiving stolen property
Counterfeiting
Drug possession
Insurance fraud
Obtaining narcotics with a forged prescription
Loitering

That's what I came up with off the top of my head. Drugs are what put most people in prison, though, and I think it's stupid. Laws aren't an effective deterrent for drug use. People have been using drugs in every culture during every period of human history. It is our nature to use drugs. People should avoid drugs so that they can make the most of their life, not because they are afraid of being punished. Fear temporarily motivates people, inspiration lasts much longer.

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Fraud, such as cashing a false check.
I have sworn out warrants on four of these cases personally. In all cases, the person wrote a check for over $ 5000 knowing it would never cash on the purchase of a car. So...what penalty should that person pay.....restitution? sure...been ordered in every case, and i think we have seen maybe 10% of what is owed. So what, lets let people target businesses, and old people, and stupid people, and get away with it....right?


Property damage. what like Bieber egging his neighbors house? I doubt many people are in prison for this charge....but enlighten me if i am mistaken


Any DUI that did not involve additional charges....so a slap on the wrist? repeat offenders are the ones that eventually kill someone.....and they continue drinking and driving. Sorry....getting behind a wheel, and doing so while under the influence of drugs or alcohol is a big no no in my book.

Receiving stolen property.....so the fences who take the stolen goods from the burglars hitting your houses.....no prion for them, huh? no....

Counterfeiting....this is a FEDERAL crime.....for a reason. It undermines the value of our currency. Go straight to leavenworth, do not stop at go, do not collect $ 200

we are a nation of laws.....it is what separates us from anarchy.....they arent too hard to follow.....

Drug possession....depends......if it is an amount strictly for personal use.....i agree.....if it is an amount that shows the person is dealing, or transporting drugs....no way....


Insurance fraud.....goes with embezzlement and other white collar crimes......the Bernie Madoff's of the world who would cheat your grandmother out of her life savings.....no

Obtaining narcotics with a forged prescription......again.....if just for personal use....okay.....if amount is intended for sale or distribution, no way

Loitering....someone may spend a few days in the pokie for this, but they dont go to prison

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Fearandloathing said:

Petty theft
Shop lifting
habitual petty offender
Drug use
simple trespass.
loitering
underage liquor
any crime that is committed in the need to stay alive. A man breaking into a summer cabin in the dead of winter because he is freezing and starving should not even be charged.

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i would seriously doubt many people are in prison for these infractions

jail time....yes...on some of them

some of them are just fine type infractions...

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu



Keep in mind that in the following stats, unless black/AA is claimed, Hispanic and Latino are aggregated under "white".

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

Wow, you aren't a big fan of the truth, are you?

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Obviously I am far more than you are.

Mustachio said:

You've completely disregarded what's been said over and over again, which is that black people are more likely to be arrested, charged, and convicted for THE SAME CRIME as a white person.

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Here is that truth thing again, you are clearly telling untruths here.
You are the one attaching meaning to it which does not exist.
I didn't stutter, I already addressed it, so stop being dishonest.

Again:

Do you really not understand that when it comes to crime, there is no parity between the races?

Mustachio said:

You also are claiming that because black people are more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession, therefore they must use marijuana at a higher rate.

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:naughty
Wrong!
I have dismissed "self reporting" as any kind of meaningful or valid metric in such a discussion, nor have I attached meaning (unlike you) beyond that which the stats show.

Mustachio said:

That is the most obvious fallacy I have ever seen. Congratulations.

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Congratulations on being wrong again. :doh
The hard stats show otherwise.

Mustachio said:

You're welcome to provide any or all of the facts that you're alluding to. Otherwise, if I've sourced my claims and you haven't, nobody would or should take anything you say seriously.

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Holy ****! :doh
We are going off of what you provided.
You attaching meaning to those stats is what shouldn't be taken seriously.
As other have shown, the cause of the disparity can be for a variety of more logical and reasonable reasons other than racism.
And yes, one of those reasons is that blacks commit far more crime overall than other races. Again, there is no parity.

Let provide an example of what you are doing, but in the opposite.

By the above stats.

DUI's

84.6 for whites
12.1 for blacks.​

While there is a disparity in those numbers there is no indication of anything racist.

Mustachio said:

Especially since you're saying that it is a "fact" that a higher percentage of black Americans use marijuana than white Americans.

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Really? I said that huh? iLOL
I said that is what the stats show.
Your dishonest argument is dishonest.

Again what was actually said.

The actual crime stats show that. Are you going to say they don't?

Mustachio said:

If you think the statistics are unreliable, then how do you know it's a fact? And how do you account for the fact that studies, no matter when or where they have taken place, have consistently shown approximately the same percentages?

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This is either you not understanding what has previously been said, or just you making another dishonest argument.