Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Ferguson

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

What do those three criteria have to do with black people being arrested 11.5 times more likely than white people for marijuana use? The % of black individuals who use marijuana is roughly equal to the % of white individuals who use marijuana. So how would the economy reconcile how a racial demographic that comprises just 17.4% of the population is 11.5 times more likely to be arrested for a crime they commit at the same rate as the other racial demographics?



Blacks make up 17.4% of the population in Minneapolis and Whites make up 70.2% Both groups use marijuana about equally. So there are 1/4 as many black marijuana users, but a black person is 11.5X more likely to be arrested for marijuana use. That's a pretty large discrepancy and I haven't heard you offer up any other explanation. I have evidence, you have "could be another explanation." If police don't target black people for non-violent crime arrests such as marijuana use, then surely statistics would support that, right? So cite some statistics!

Do you have any black friends? I'd suggest you ask them about this subject matter. Every black friend I've ever had has got stories about the police trying to find a reason to arrest them. I have stories about the police looking for reasons not to arrest me.

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For the moment, lets say its true that blacks and whites have parity on marijuana use ( I haven't seen any study to suggest for or against that). You can't get from there to the fact that blacks are more likely to be arrested for marijuana use without looking at the factors in between. Could they have been more likely to be out in public? Driving erratically? Caught for another crime and then marijuana was found? Less likely to have a legal reason to be using medical marijuana? More likely to commit other crimes that would lead cops to them? More gang activity? (btw there are stats for these)

Do you understand what Im saying? You simply can't make the jump from one to the other without knowing these things.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

US Conservative said:

For the moment, lets say its true that blacks and whites have parity on marijuana use ( I haven't seen any study to suggest for or against that). You can't get from there to the fact that blacks are more likely to be arrested for marijuana use without looking at the factors in between. Could they have been more likely to be out in public? Driving erratically? Caught for another crime and then marijuana was found? Less likely to have a legal reason to be using medical marijuana? More likely to commit other crimes that would lead cops to them? More gang activity? (btw there are stats for these)

Do you understand what Im saying? You simply can't make the jump from one to the other without knowing these things.

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Yes, I do understand what you're saying. You're saying that correlation isn't causation, which is definitely true. However, like I already said, I have a lot of black friends who attest to the fact that they have been targeted by the police even though they hadn't done anything wrong. They never got arrested and aren't criminals, so I don't doubt that they're being truthful. At the same time, I should have been arrested multiple times but was let off. When that is your experience, and there are statistics that seem to support the claim, it has a good deal of credence. My first post said that the numbers do make it sound like the police targeted black people in Ferguson but those numbers alone don't prove anything. So I get it, I just think that there is sufficient evidence to conclude that black people are more likely to be arrested for non-violent crimes than white people, who are sometimes (such as in my case) let off the hook for no apparent reason.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

Yes, I do understand what you're saying. You're saying that correlation isn't causation, which is definitely true. However, like I already said, I have a lot of black friends who attest to the fact that they have been targeted by the police even though they hadn't done anything wrong. They never got arrested and aren't criminals, so I don't doubt that they're being truthful. At the same time, I should have been arrested multiple times but was let off. When that is your experience, and there are statistics that seem to support the claim, it has a good deal of credence. My first post said that the numbers do make it sound like the police targeted black people in Ferguson but those numbers alone don't prove anything. So I get it, I just think that there is sufficient evidence to conclude that black people are more likely to be arrested for non-violent crimes than white people, who are sometimes (such as in my case) let off the hook for no apparent reason.

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Have you... ever spent time say on a community ride along, or worked for or with the police?

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

What do those three criteria have to do with black people being arrested 11.5 times more likely than white people for marijuana use? The % of black individuals who use marijuana is roughly equal to the % of white individuals who use marijuana. So how would the economy reconcile how a racial demographic that comprises just 17.4% of the population is 11.5 times more likely to be arrested for a crime they commit at the same rate as the other racial demographics?



Blacks make up 17.4% of the population in Minneapolis and Whites make up 70.2% Both groups use marijuana about equally. So there are 1/4 as many black marijuana users, but a black person is 11.5X more likely to be arrested for marijuana use. That's a pretty large discrepancy and I haven't heard you offer up any other explanation. I have evidence, you have "could be another explanation." If police don't target black people for non-violent crime arrests such as marijuana use, then surely statistics would support that, right? So cite some statistics!

Do you have any black friends? I'd suggest you ask them about this subject matter. Every black friend I've ever had has got stories about the police trying to find a reason to arrest them. I have stories about the police looking for reasons not to arrest me.

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Blacks actually have a lower rate of usage than whites.

Race/Ethnicity and Gender Differences in Drug Use and Abuse Among College Students

According to the 2003 NSDUH, 38.2% of White young adults 18 to 25 years of age in the U.S. reported any illicit drug use in the past year, followed by African-American (30.6%) and Hispanic (27.5%) young adults (SAMHSA, 2004a). The same race/ethnicity patterns were observed for the past-year prevalence of marijuana use and marijuana use disorders among individuals 18 to 29 years of age according to data from the 2001–2002 National Epidemiological Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions (NESARC; Compton et al., 2004). Further, the past-year prevalence of DSM-IV marijuana use disorders increased significantly between 1991–1992 and 2001–2002, with the greatest increases observed among Hispanic and African-American young adults. In contrast, the prevalence of DSM-IV marijuana use disorders for White young adults did not change significantly over this same time period (Compton et al., 2004).

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Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

Yes, I do understand what you're saying. You're saying that correlation isn't causation, which is definitely true. However, like I already said, I have a lot of black friends who attest to the fact that they have been targeted by the police even though they hadn't done anything wrong. They never got arrested and aren't criminals, so I don't doubt that they're being truthful. At the same time, I should have been arrested multiple times but was let off. When that is your experience, and there are statistics that seem to support the claim, it has a good deal of credence. My first post said that the numbers do make it sound like the police targeted black people in Ferguson but those numbers alone don't prove anything. So I get it, I just think that there is sufficient evidence to conclude that black people are more likely to be arrested for non-violent crimes than white people, who are sometimes (such as in my case) let off the hook for no apparent reason.

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I dont think anyone is denying that at times there are episodes of racism occurring. But you cited first anecdotes and then data that does not support that argument. Do you understand why I took issue with that?

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

MrVicchio said:

Have you... ever spent time say on a community ride along, or worked for or with the police?

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I really would like to see more libs do that. Its remarkable that they love govt but not the enforcement arm of said govt.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

MrVicchio said:

Have you... ever spent time say on a community ride along, or worked for or with the police?

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No, have you? I don't know why you're asking me that. I have an in-law who is a police officer, and a friend who is a fireman, but that's it.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

No, have you? I don't know why you're asking me that. I have an in-law who is a police officer, and a friend who is a fireman, but that's it.

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I have. It is an enlightenning experience.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

MrVicchio said:

I have. It is an enlightenning experience.

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So...

I don't understand what you're getting at here.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

So...

I don't understand what you're getting at here.

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I could tell you bout my year working for the Dept. The **** I saw, and what law enforcement deals with or you could find out when the next community out reach is and see for yourself.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

MrVicchio said:

I could tell you bout my year working for the Dept. The **** I saw, and what law enforcement deals with or you could find out when the next community out reach is and see for yourself.

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You're not actually saying anything that relates to this thread. I think that you're trying to subtly say that black people are scary but don't want to sound racist. If that's not what you're trying to say, then I don't get it.

Like I said, I have an in-law who is a police officer. I have had mostly positive experiences with police officers, except the one who used to drive by me every night because I took a walk at 3 AM before I went to bed. He was a jerk. But the fact that I know a good cop and have mostly positive experiences with them do not negate several forms of evidence that say, generally, black people are more likely than white people to be arrested for non-violent crime. They're more likely to be pulled over. I have a friend who is from the Middle East and he is "randomly" chosen to be searched every single time he goes through airport security. That's just how our world works.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Erod said:

Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Ferguson - CNN.com



Was there any chance whatsoever Holder would have accepted a conclusion that said anything differently?

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538 has some solid work on this.

Ferguson
[h=2]Are The Racial Disparities In Ferguson’s Traffic Stops Unusual?[/h] By Mona Chalabi

For years, black residents of Ferguson, Missouri, have been disproportionately targeted by the city’s police officers for traffic stops, according to a damning Justice Department report released Wednesday detailing how the city police department violated civil rights laws. Data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) suggests that police behavior in Ferguson may not be that unusual.

In September 2013, the BJS published a report that found that overall, 10.2 percent of all U.S. drivers were stopped by police in 2011. However, the percentages varied depending on the race and ethnicity of the driver — 12.8 percent of all black or African-American drivers were stopped that year, compared with 10.4 percent of Hispanic or Latino drivers and 9.8 percent of white drivers.

There appears to be a similar disparity in Ferguson. According to the DOJ report, 85 percent of traffic stops in the city over the past two years involved African-Americans; 67 percent of residents are black. (It’s hard to make a direct comparison with the national data because we don’t know the racial demographics of the city’s driving population and because some of those traffic stops may have involved drivers from outside the city.) . . . .

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

So...

I don't understand what you're getting at here.

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You might gain some insight if you see it from the other side.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

Yes, I can give you a specific example of that. It happened to a person named me. But you can't prove that I wasn't arrested solely because of my race. I could have been arrested a number of times (this was over a decade ago) but never was. If you don't think that me being middle class and white played a role in it, that's your choice, but I think you're ignoring the evidence. I grew up in Minneapolis, where there's this: racial disparity in low level arrests.

The Minneapolis Police Department’s own data, as reported to the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s Uniform Crime Reporting, reveals that between 2004 and 2012, an African American individual was, on average:

11.5 times more likely to be arrested than a white individual for marijuana possession;
8.86 times more likely to be arrested than a white individual for disorderly conduct;
7.54 times more likely to be arrested than a white individual for vagrancy; and
16.39 times more likely to be arrested than a white juvenile for curfew/loitering

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That's racist, right?

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So the politically correct thing to do is to stop enforcing these laws in predominately black communities?

I thought that was tried and cries arose from the communities to return the police patrols and enforcement to their communities.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Erod said:

Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Ferguson - CNN.com



Was there any chance whatsoever Holder would have accepted a conclusion that said anything differently?

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Do you think the investigators are lying?

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

eohrnberger said:

So the politically correct thing to do is to stop enforcing these laws in predominately black communities?

I thought that was tried and cries arose from the communities to return the police patrols and enforcement to their communities.

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No, the politically correct thing to do is stop giving white people a "warning" while arresting black people as often as possible. The part you're missing is this: it's not that the police encounter 11.5 times more black people who possess marijuana. The issue is that upon encountering one white person and one black person who both possess marijuana, the black person is 11.5 times more likely to be arrested.

White teenager caught vandalizing something gets brought home to mom and dad. Black teenager caught vandalizing something gets brought to jail.

Arrest more white people and I bet you see penalties for marijuana possession drop quickly.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

eohrnberger said:

So the politically correct thing to do is to stop enforcing these laws in predominately black communities?

I thought that was tried and cries arose from the communities to return the police patrols and enforcement to their communities.

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I think the politically correct thing to do is consistently enforce laws without taking race into consideration. If you are going to arrest a black man for having a little bit of marijuana, then arrest a white person for having a little bit of marijuana. Better yet, don't arrest a black man for having a little bit of marijuana. Don't arrest black people at 11.5X the rate that you arrest white people for, and remember that this is what i'm talking about, NON-VIOLENT crimes. Filling prisons up with black men who have not committed violent crimes is incredibly stupid and only perpetuates the racial divide in America.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

The Justice Department's report on Ferguson is scathing - Business Insider

Internal communications indicate the extent to which the city is preoccupied with revenue generation: "Unless ticket writing ramps up significantly before the end of the year, it will be hard to significantly raise collections next year," the city's finance director wrote in one email to Police Chief Jackson. "What are your thoughts? Given that we are looking at a substantial sales tax shortfall, it’s not an insignificant issue"

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Just ****in fire them all and start anew.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

I think the politically correct thing to do is consistently enforce laws without taking race into consideration. If you are going to arrest a black man for having a little bit of marijuana, then arrest a white person for having a little bit of marijuana. Better yet, don't arrest a black man for having a little bit of marijuana. Don't arrest black people at 11.5X the rate that you arrest white people for, and remember that this is what i'm talking about, NON-VIOLENT crimes. Filling prisons up with black men who have not committed violent crimes is incredibly stupid and only perpetuates the racial divide in America.

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How do you not arrest a race if that race is responsible for the lion's share of the crime? Look, we have the same problem with First Nations, due to a lot of complex circumstances some dating back decades [we had a form of 'slavery' into the late 1960's with residential schools] they commit the greater amount of crime by degrees of magnitude than any other race.

Do you just not arrest them? No, and our courts went progressive and set limits on incarceration which mean a lot of very bad people were out on the street. Now, we have band [tribal] courts that get results and don't imprison. the crime rate is coming down, but the ratio remains extreme and will likely do so for generations to come.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

US Conservative said:

You might gain some insight if you see it from the other side.

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I don't consider myself to be closed-minded at all and I don't think I have a problem seeing it from the other side. The issue isn't usually the police officers themselves, it's the systematic way that race is used to determine whether or not laws will be enforced. A documentary that deals with this issue and spends a lot of time following law enforcement in is The House I Live In, which you can watch on Netflix if you'd like to see this issue from the other side. The documentary demonstrates that we have used to war on drugs to make billions of dollars off of our prisons system, even though the prison system is not at all effective at treating drug use or drug addiction. It also shows how poor black communities are targeted by law enforcement. It makes a very compelling argument.

Fearandloathing said:

How do you not arrest a race if that race is responsible for the lion's share of the crime? Look, we have the same problem with First Nations, due to a lot of complex circumstances some dating back decades [we had a form of 'slavery' into the late 1960's with residential schools] they commit the greater amount of crime by degrees of magnitude than any other race.

Do you just not arrest them? No, and our courts went progressive and set limits on incarceration which mean a lot of very bad people were out on the street. Now, we have band [tribal] courts that get results and don't imprison. the crime rate is coming down, but the ratio remains extreme and will likely do so for generations to come.

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I just discussed this. Black people don't use marijuana at 11.5X the rate white people use it. Another poster had statistics saying the rate of marijuana use is lower among black people than for white people. But we do arrest black people at 11.5X the rate as white people for marijuana possession.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

That's racist, right?

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Not necessarily. It would depend on the reason they were being arrested at a higher rate. If say Joe a white man is pulled over and caught with a joint but had no previous encounters with police the officer may let him off with a warning. However if Joe the black man, who has a long list of prior arrests and is well known to the department, may not get off with a warning but is instead arrested. Law enforcement tend to lose forgiveness when you are a consistent problem.

Now I am not saying this is the case I am just trying to make an argument for why a higher arrest rate my not be indicative of racism.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

I don't consider myself to be closed-minded at all and I don't think I have a problem seeing it from the other side. The issue isn't usually the police officers themselves, it's the systematic way that race is used to determine whether or not laws will be enforced. A documentary that deals with this issue and spends a lot of time following law enforcement in is The House I Live In, which you can watch on Netflix if you'd like to see this issue from the other side. The documentary demonstrates that we have used to war on drugs to make billions of dollars off of our prisons system, even though the prison system is not at all effective at treating drug use or drug addiction. It also shows how poor black communities are targeted by law enforcement. It makes a very compelling argument.



I just discussed this. Black people don't use marijuana at 11.5X the rate white people use it. Another poster had statistics saying the rate of marijuana use is lower among black people than for white people. But we do arrest black people at 11.5X the rate as white people for marijuana possession.

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Show evidence of systematic racism. As for prisons thats off topic but I will say the purpose of prisons is to remove criminals from society first-not to rehab them. And as far as law enforcement targeting black neighborhoods I disagree-they target where the crime is-and yes that is often times black neighborhoods. Dont you want cops where the crime is?

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Fearandloathing said:

How do you not arrest a race if that race is responsible for the lion's share of the crime? Look, we have the same problem with First Nations, due to a lot of complex circumstances some dating back decades [we had a form of 'slavery' into the late 1960's with residential schools] they commit the greater amount of crime by degrees of magnitude than any other race.

Do you just not arrest them? No, and our courts went progressive and set limits on incarceration which mean a lot of very bad people were out on the street. Now, we have band [tribal] courts that get results and don't imprison. the crime rate is coming down, but the ratio remains extreme and will likely do so for generations to come.

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Different groups behave differently. And yet he appears to want some identical outcome.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Baralis said:

Not necessarily. It would depend on the reason they were being arrested at a higher rate. If say Joe a white man is pulled over and caught with a joint but had no previous encounters with police the officer may let him off with a warning. However if Joe the black man, who has a long list of prior arrests and is well known to the department, may not get off with a warning but is instead arrested. Law enforcement tend to lose forgiveness when you are a consistent problem.

Now I am not saying this is the case I am just trying to make an argument for why a higher arrest rate my not be indicative of racism.

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It's not really the case, though. Sometimes what you're saying is true but it doesn't explain the numbers. Here's a NY Times editorial discussing the issue of marijuana arrests.

From 2001 to 2010, the police made more than 8.2 million marijuana arrests; almost nine in 10 were for possession alone. In 2011, there were more arrests for marijuana possession than for all violent crimes put together.

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The article also states that a black person is 10X more likely to go to prison for a drug charge. That has nothing to do with priors and I see no possible way that statistic can be explained any other way than race. Also, 9 in 10 prisoners in the United States have no history of violence. And a study done in New York showed that, among tens of thousands of people who were arrested for marijuana, 90% went on to never have a felony charge and only about 3% went on to commit a violent crime. That paints a picture of a pretty awful system to me.

US Conservative said:

Show evidence of systematic racism. As for prisons thats off topic but I will say the purpose of prisons is to remove criminals from society first-not to rehab them. And as far as law enforcement targeting black neighborhoods I disagree-they target where the crime is-and yes that is often times black neighborhoods. Dont you want cops where the crime is?

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Read what I just wrote above and also read the article and watch the movie. Don't I want cops where crime is? Have you read nothing I've said? Black and white people use marijuana at THE SAME rate or perhaps black people use marijuana at a LOWER rate yet are 3-30 times more likely to be arrested for it than a white person. You said "don't you want cops where the crime is?" Maybe I should be saying that to you, because white people are using marijuana at the same rate as black people but are 3-30 times less likely to be charged with marijuana possession. Logically, whites are getting away with the crimes that you believe they should be going to prison for. Why aren't you outraged that white people are getting away with using drugs? Instead, you're an apologist for a system that targets black people and imprisons them for non-violent crimes. Sometimes, people just disagree on a subject matter, but I'm pleased to know that all of the available evidence and statistics back what I'm saying and completely destroy everything you're saying.

Re: Justice report finds systematic discrimination against African Americans in Fergu

Mustachio said:

It's not really the case, though. Sometimes what you're saying is true but it doesn't explain the numbers. Here's a NY Times editorial discussing the issue of marijuana arrests.



The article also states that a black person is 10X more likely to go to prison for a drug charge. That has nothing to do with priors and I see no possible way that statistic can be explained any other way than race. Also, 9 in 10 prisoners in the United States have no history of violence. And a study done in New York showed that, among tens of thousands of people who were arrested for marijuana, 90% went on to never have a felony charge and only about 3% went on to commit a violent crime. That paints a picture of a pretty awful system to me.



Read what I just wrote above and also read the article and watch the movie. Don't I want cops where crime is? Have you read nothing I've said? Black and white people use marijuana at THE SAME rate or perhaps black people use marijuana at a LOWER rate yet are 3-30 times more likely to be arrested for it than a white person. You said "don't you want cops where the crime is?" Maybe I should be saying that to you, because white people are using marijuana at the same rate as black people but are 3-30 times less likely to be charged with marijuana possession. Logically, whites are getting away with the crimes that you believe they should be going to prison for. Why aren't you outraged that white people are getting away with using drugs? Instead, you're an apologist for a system that targets black people and imprisons them for non-violent crimes. Sometimes, people just disagree on a subject matter, but I'm pleased to know that all of the available evidence and statistics back what I'm saying and completely destroy everything you're saying.

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Show me the policies, across the patchwork of cities and towns in the US that say to target someone based on race.
As for marijuana, you need to account for other factors besides drug use that would cause them to interact with the poice-frankly if its happening in someones home, away from children I dont care. But again, other factors like higher levels of violence, white-collar crime, speeding all lead to more interaction with the police (same is true for white people-another reason why you can't isolate that stat)-if weed is found they'd be charged with possession. Do you see why that would lead to a discrepancy? Remember when I said different groups behave differently? If one neighborhood has a problem with people smoking marijuana, and another has the same issue plus more violence, where do you want the cops?

As for the whole violent vs non violent criminals in jail, I see that as a different issue, but I can tell you that here in liberal california-its typically repeat offenders that get put in jail. We implemented the 3 strikes law to remove repeat criminals from society and it worked well in lowering crime rates.