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Thread: In Four-Word Phrase, Challenger Spied Health Care Law’s Vulnerability

  1. #31
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    Re: In Four-Word Phrase, Challenger Spied Health Care Law’s Vulnerability

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Ah, see, you have made a silly mistake. The IRS code is not passed law


    Sec 36B of the IRS Code was created by legislation (ie The Tax Reform Act of 1986) passed by Congress.

    Guess which President signed it?

    PPACA, which is law also passed by Congress, contains many amendments and additions to Sec 36B, including the one that is at the center of this lawsuit

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Yeah, and Sangha, the Obama administration, and Greenbeard apparently don't know that IRS policies written to apply a bill passed by congress are not interchangeable with congressional laws.
    I think it's hilarious that you think that IRS Code is not law.
    Last edited by sangha; 03-03-15 at 12:55 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: In Four-Word Phrase, Challenger Spied Health Care Law’s Vulnerability

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Ah, see, you have made a silly mistake. The IRS code is not passed law, it can only enforce the law that was passed.
    USC = U.S. Code = federal law, partner. You're confusing the USC with the CFR (the Code of Federal Regulations), the latter indeed being administrative code.

    Title 26 of the U.S. Code is the compilation of the nation's tax laws. Period. If you prefer to read this in the text of the actual Affordable Care Act, it's Section 1401. Doesn't matter, it's the same language--Section 1401 of the ACA adds Section 36B to the Internal Revenue Code. Which, to be clear, is federal law, created and passed by Congress.

    As fun at this civics lesson surely is for the both of us, let's not distract from the point: federal law in the U.S. clearly indicates that tax subsidies flow through exchanges established for states by HHS.

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    Re: In Four-Word Phrase, Challenger Spied Health Care Law’s Vulnerability

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    No, they can't be undone because the deadline for issuing those regs has already passed.
    So? Seems Obama has been amazingly flexible with deadlines since the law was passed. If he can be so flagrant so can any future administration.

    Hell, any future President, acting as Obama has, can overturn the PPACA by simply not enforcing the law. If you can do it with illegal aliens and marijuana why not the PPACA?


    Where?

    In the part you dishonestly left out of your quote.
    That is the entirety of 18401(b)! Are you maybe referring to a section you idiotically didn't state?




    The IRS did not rewrite anything.
    Of course it did! The section of the PPACA regarding the distribution of subsidies clearly lists only state exchanges, not federal exchanges. The IRS code lists both, which is a change from the law as passed.

    The funny thing is, if sections 1311 and 1321 are identical then why do you suppose the IRS added 1321 into the policy when, buy the Administration's own argument, it was already clear in the law as passed?



    Yes you did. You claimed the text says that subsidies go to state exchanges. I quoted the text. It does not say that.
    No, you quoted the Administrations brief to the SCOTUS which quotes the IRS policy which is not the law itself.



    And you posted the republicans arguments which is not stating the law. At least my quotes included the actual text of PPACA and Sec 36b of the IRS Code. You posted none of laws actual text. You just made stuff up and claimed that's what the law says.

    The IRS code is not the law, it is the policy that would be used to enforce the law. The IRS code and the PPACA are currently not in sync regarding subsidies. The policy written by the IRS mirrors what the Administration now says the law was supposed to say. For this to be upheld by the SCOTUS it will need to be determined that the law as written in the bill and passed by congress and signed by the president was not the intent of the law and the IRS policy reflects the intent. It is on a very narrow legal argument that such changes are allowed to be made to the wording of passed legislation. Unfortunately you have a Gruber problem with that argument because the chief architect of the law is seen on video repeatedly stating that the intent of the law was to make the subsidies the carrot on the stick to get states to build their own exchanges.



    Wrong. http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1064377150 In post $17 I posted text from Sec 18031 and 18041 of PPACA, and in another post I quoted text from Sec 36B of IRS Code, and from Blacks' Law Dictionary
    Ah, now I see your 18041(b) is actually 18041(c). Your bad.

    So where in that quote does it say that the exchange CREATED IN THE STATE by the Secretary of HHS will be considered CREATED BY THE STATE as is specified in the subsidy section? Nobody is arguing that the law doesn't instruct the Secretary of HHS to create an exchange when a state doesn't create one, that isn't the argument. The argument is that the law allows for subsidies for exchanges CREATED BY THE STATE, which an HHS exchange clearly is not.

    The IRS code was written after it became clear that 30+ states would not be establishing exchanges, and after it had already been reported that the Federal Exchange might not be eligible for subsidies as written in the law. The IRS tried to change the law which is unconstitutional.
    Last edited by jmotivator; 03-03-15 at 01:26 AM.
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    Re: In Four-Word Phrase, Challenger Spied Health Care Law’s Vulnerability

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    The IRS code is not the law, it is the policy that would be used to enforce the law.
    The Internal Revenue Code (Title 26 of USC) is the law. I don't think there's a more basic misunderstanding a person could have on this subject.

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    Re: In Four-Word Phrase, Challenger Spied Health Care Law’s Vulnerability

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post


    Sec 36B of the IRS Code was created by legislation (ie The Tax Reform Act of 1986) passed by Congress.

    Guess which President signed it?
    Yes, Sangha, 38B was passed in 1986 as a framework for the IRS to establish policy to enforce tax law. The codes written by the IRS under the this authority are not laws and can't change laws.

    ... or are you arguing that the code regarding collection of taxes and distribution of subsidies for the PPACA were written in 1986?

    PPACA, which is law also passed by Congress, contains many amendments and additions to Sec 36B, including the one that is at the center of this lawsuit
    No, it references 38B, but the policies weren't written at the time the PPACA was passed. They were finalized more than a year after the law was passed (first published in February 2012). The IRS code tries to change the PPACA subsidies law by including the Federal Exchanges where the PPACA had omitted them. This authority is not granted by the Tax Reform Act of 1986.


    I think it's hilarious that you think that IRS Code is not law.
    I find it hilarious that you think the IRS can change legislation without consent of Congress.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: In Four-Word Phrase, Challenger Spied Health Care Law’s Vulnerability

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenbeard View Post
    The Internal Revenue Code (Title 26 of USC) is the law. I don't think there's a more basic misunderstanding a person could have on this subject.
    NO, the PPACA is the law, the IRS code is written to establish a framework for enforcing the law passed by Congress. It's amazing you can't grasp that simple concept.

    The Reason the IRS code is not the law is because the authority to write and amend laws is granted to Congress. If the IRS founds something in a law that twarts their ability to write policy then it goes back to Congress to correct the law, they can't rewrite the law to suit what they think it should have said. The IRS is not part of the Legislative Branch.

    I mean, sure, if you want to decide that the IRS has the ability to write laws then I am sure the next Republican President would be thrilled to have such unchecked power. Now that the Dem have killed the appointment filibuster the new President could Appoint Ted Cruz to head the IRS and Ted Cruz could, with this new legislative power, undo the IRS by reinterpreting all kinds of gray tax law.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: In Four-Word Phrase, Challenger Spied Health Care Law’s Vulnerability

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    NO, the PPACA is the law, the IRS code is written to establish a framework for enforcing the law passed by Congress. It's amazing you can't grasp that simple concept.
    The Internal Revenue Code (part of the U.S. Code) refers to tax law passed by Congress. The USC comes from the legislative branch. That's what I've quoted (as amended by the ACA). The law, as passed by Congress, clearly references federal subsidies in the federally facilitated exchanges. I've quoted it--it doesn't shock me that you've never seen the relevant section of the law before but, surprise, that's what it says.

    Regulations issued by the IRS in accordance with those laws sit in the Code of Federal Regulations. The CFR comes from the executive branch. That's not what we've been referencing here.

    Again, this is basic stuff. If you don't know this, I don't know how you've tried to form an opinion on the issues at stake here.
    Last edited by Greenbeard; 03-03-15 at 02:01 AM.

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    Re: In Four-Word Phrase, Challenger Spied Health Care Law’s Vulnerability

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post


    There are no Federal exchanges.
    There is one Federal exchange.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

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    Re: In Four-Word Phrase, Challenger Spied Health Care Law’s Vulnerability

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    So? Seems Obama has been amazingly flexible with deadlines since the law was passed. If he can be so flagrant so can any future administration.

    Hell, any future President, acting as Obama has, can overturn the PPACA by simply not enforcing the law. If you can do it with illegal aliens and marijuana why not the PPACA?
    IOW, the govt can't give subsidies to people enrolled in exchanges created by HHS because the law says they can't but a republican president can ignore what the law says

    That is the entirety of 18401(b)! Are you maybe referring to a section you idiotically didn't state?
    It's in 18041(c) which is the part that states that HHS can set up "an exchange established by the State"

    My bad

    Of course it did! The section of the PPACA regarding the distribution of subsidies clearly lists only state exchanges, not federal exchanges. The IRS code lists both, which is a change from the law as passed.
    No section of PPACA or the IRS Code "lists only state exchanges, not federal exchanges". The term "federal exchange" is not used in either.

    And why do you insist on embarrasing yourself by claiming that the IRS wrote the IRS Code? The IRS Code is the creation of Internal Revenue Act of 1986 and was later amended by PPACA.

    The funny thing is, if sections 1311 and 1321 are identical then why do you suppose the IRS added 1321 into the policy when, buy the Administration's own argument, it was already clear in the law as passed?
    why do you insist on embarrasing yourself by claiming that the IRS wrote the IRS Code? The IRS Code is the creation of Internal Revenue Act of 1986 and was later amended by PPACA.

    And Sections 1311 and 1321 are not identical and 1321 was not added by the IRS. It is a part of PPACA, passed into law by Congress.

    No, you quoted the Administrations brief to the SCOTUS which quotes the IRS policy which is not the law itself.
    why do you insist on embarrasing yourself by claiming that the IRS wrote the IRS Code? The IRS Code is the creation of Internal Revenue Act of 1986 which was passed into law by congress and was later amended by PPACA which is also law passed by congress.


    The IRS code is not the law, it is the policy that would be used to enforce the law.

    why do you insist on embarrasing yourself by claiming that the IRS wrote the IRS Code? The IRS Code is the creation of Internal Revenue Act of 1986 which was passed into law by congress and was later amended by PPACA which is also law passed by congres


    So where in that quote does it say that the exchange CREATED IN THE STATE by the Secretary of HHS will be considered CREATED BY THE STATE as is specified in the subsidy section?
    Sec 18041(c)(1) where it says that if the state doesn't create the exchange then HHS
    will establish and operate such Exchange within
    the State

    The IRS code was written after it became clear that 30+ states would not be establishing exchanges, and after it had already been reported that the Federal Exchange might not be eligible for subsidies as written in the law. The IRS tried to change the law which is unconstitutional.
    NO, Sec 36B of the IRS Code that is being disputed here were created by PPACA which is law passed by Congress.

    The following is from Sec 1401 of PPACA
    SEC. 1401. REFUNDABLE TAX CREDIT PROVIDING PREMIUM ASSISTANCE FOR
    COVERAGE UNDER A QUALIFIED HEALTH PLAN.

    (a) In General.--Subpart C of part IV of subchapter A of chapter 1
    of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to refundable credits) is
    amended by inserting after section 36A the following new section:
    It says that it is amending The IRS Code by adding a section after Sec 36A.

    What comes after Sec 36A? Sec 36C?

    Every word in Sec 36B was put there by Sec 1401 of PPACA. Every word of Sec 36C of the IRS Code is law and was written by Congress, not the IRS


    why do you insist on embarrasing yourself by claiming that the IRS wrote the IRS Code? It was written and passed into law by Congress

    The only thing the IRS wrote was a notice stating that the govt would make credits available to all eligible individuals who purchase insurance on an exchange—both in states that establish the exchanges for themselves and in states that are unable to do so or that opt to allow HHS to establish the exchanges in their stead as the laws in both the US Code and the IRS Code require them to do.

    Both the US Code and the IRS Code are law. Both were passed by Congress
    Last edited by sangha; 03-03-15 at 08:00 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: In Four-Word Phrase, Challenger Spied Health Care Law’s Vulnerability

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Good for them. Thats one of the primary reasons they cleaned the Democrats clocks in the Midterms.
    Haven't you heard? It was low voter turnout.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    They were sent up there to kill this abortion of a law.
    Never gonna happen with the current, utterly inept GOP leadership. Boehner and McConnell have already conceded defeat in that, and other areas. Despite the fact that McConnell ran on a platform of "repeal and replace". I'm pretty much resigned to the idea that Hitlery will be the next president. We will never have another decent economy in my lifetime. The GOP has utterly failed conservatism.

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