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DHS funding expected to run out as key House vote fails

Hamster Buddha said:
I get your all's point about Boehner, but, quick check of facts here, how many Democrats voted for this bill?
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Boehner has plenty of men in his caucus to pass this bill without a single Democratic vote. The Democrats are wisely refusing to play his game.

Pelosi has made it very clear that if Boehner simply lets the Senate bill come to the floor, her caucus will support it. So a divided Republican caucus would supply more than enough votes.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
I understand it may seem like that immigration is the only issue at play here, but it's not. Not when you are talking about funding a rather large, and some would argue intrusive, branch of the government. And incidentally, no law is every passed these days without all the parties involved already agreeing to everything. That whole process where the two parties hash out a bill and go to a joint committee to find a compromise, that stuff hasn't happened in YEARS. And incidentally, Republicans have only controlled the senate for a couple of months now. And after the poor relations that the Republican House had with the Senate, it's easy to understand why they wouldn't be on the best of terms, just two months into a new congress.
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I guess we just see the situation a little differently. And the bottom line is what failed today was a three week funding plan to allow for more negotiations. The hard liners just do not believe in any compromise, but they're in a job where compromise is just a normal part of governing, part of the job description.
 
Phys251 said:
Boehner has plenty of men in his caucus to pass this bill without a single Democratic vote. The Democrats are wisely refusing to play his game.

Pelosi has made it very clear that if Boehner simply lets the Senate bill come to the floor, her caucus will support it. So a divided Republican caucus would supply more than enough votes.
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Or, if Pelosi really thinks that it's so important to fund the DHS, then she wouldn't be playing chicken and would throw her support behind it. This road travels both ways you know?
 
JasperL said:
I guess we just see the situation a little differently. And the bottom line is what failed today was a three week funding plan to allow for more negotiations. The hard liners just do not believe in any compromise, but they're in a job where compromise is just a normal part of governing, part of the job description.
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Since when? Look, ten or fifteen years ago then what you said would be completely true. But ever since that first term where the Democrats controlled everything, they set the tone and the Republicans have been more than happy to follow suit. It also doesn't help when Obama won't even meet with Republican leaders. Let me ask you think, If Obama really cared at all what the Reps thought, then why not just put out what he expected in an Immigration Bill, give a six month deadline for them to pass something, and if nothing happened then he could go the unilateral route with the cover that he gave the Reps a chance. No, instead, he just did what he wanted and couldn't care less of the consequences.

Bottom line, the head of the US Government isn't Boenher, but the POTUS himself, Obama. He could get this done if he were willing to work with the other side but he's not and never has been. Sadly, many Republicans were more than happy to take the same hardline approach the President did, and we are where we are now.
 
Phys251 said:
I refer you to my previous answer. Six months should even be enough time for Boehner to hammer out a more long-term solution.



And this is the kind of insanity that got us in this mess.
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lighten up.. i'm regurgitating the kind of spin/rhetoric that has been commonplace over the last few years.... push me any further, and i'll start chatting about the Democratic parties war on white heterosexual pregnant women in the private sector.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
Or, if Pelosi really thinks that it's so important to fund the DHS, then she wouldn't be playing chicken and would throw her support behind it. This road travels both ways you know?
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Sure it does, but it doesn't work the way the hard liners believe it should work, with them dictating all the terms of the legislation with no input from democrats and Pelosi saying, "OK, great, now that you've given me NOTHING, I'll deliver the votes!!"

I'm sure she'd help out and line up the needed votes in an hour because she IS a competent leader of her caucus, but it will take COMPROMISE on the part of the GOP, and that's the problem - they're not willing to do that at this point.
 
JasperL said:
Sure it does, but it doesn't work the way the hard liners believe it should work, with them dictating all the terms of the legislation with no input from democrats and Pelosi saying, "OK, great, now that you've given me NOTHING, I'll deliver the votes!!"

I'm sure she'd help out and line up the needed votes in an hour because she IS a competent leader of her caucus, but it will take COMPROMISE on the part of the GOP, and that's the problem - they're not willing to do that at this point.
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Neither is the Democrats though. If they were, we wouldn't of been in this position in the first place because Obama wouldn't of forced through unilaterally what he wanted. And I also wouldn't say she's that competent a leader, I mean the she has consistently lost more and more seats to the Republicans after all...

But beyond that, again, she is playing politics with America's security, or at least that's what many on the left are saying about Republicans. If she really believed that this was so important, then politics be damned man! Clearly, she doesn't believe it is, so why should the Republicans not act any differently?
 
DHS apparently has been ordered to not do its job by the POTUS so, if ever there was an office that was worthy of defunding...
 
Hamster Buddha said:
Since when? Look, ten or fifteen years ago then what you said would be completely true. But ever since that first term where the Democrats controlled everything, they set the tone and the Republicans have been more than happy to follow suit. It also doesn't help when Obama won't even meet with Republican leaders. Let me ask you think, If Obama really cared at all what the Reps thought, then why not just put out what he expected in an Immigration Bill, give a six month deadline for them to pass something, and if nothing happened then he could go the unilateral route with the cover that he gave the Reps a chance. No, instead, he just did what he wanted and couldn't care less of the consequences.
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First of all, you have to at least acknowledge that the GOP met before inauguration and pledged to block the democrats on everything. Before inauguration. And they followed through with that. Here's one story.

In case you don't want to read, Obama set up a meeting with the GOP on stimulus in his first WEEK in office. Before he got to that first meeting just with the GOP, Boehner had already gone public with pleas for the GOP to oppose it. Cantor had ALREADY promised to whip a count of ZERO GOPers in support, and that's what they did.

So what do you expect? The big problem among progressives is this was obvious from day one, but the Democrats still believed against all evidence on things like the ACA that if they gave into some GOP demands that they'd have some GOP cross over and provide needed votes. Time and again that didn't happen. Record filibusters - shattered the old records.

Now as to immigration, you can say that Obama wasn't serious about immigration reform, but he's repeatedly said that he wants the Congress to act, and they haven't. And he submitted the outlines of reform in 2013, as you suggested. Here's the outlines from 1/29/2013.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...en-immigration-system-so-everyone-plays-rules

Later that year, the Senate passed a bill 68-32, so with bipartisan support. http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/immigration-bill-2013-senate-passes-93530.html

So the POTUS did what you asked, and the Senate including republicans responded.

Bottom line, the head of the US Government isn't Boenher, but the POTUS himself, Obama. He could get this done if he were willing to work with the other side but he's not and never has been. Sadly, many Republicans were more than happy to take the same hardline approach the President did, and we are where we are now.
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But Obama can't pass immigration reform. That requires a majority in the House and 60 votes in the Senate. You can bring Obama into this when he vetoes a bill that got through that process.
 
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Hamster Buddha said:
Neither is the Democrats though. If they were, we wouldn't of been in this position in the first place because Obama wouldn't of forced through unilaterally what he wanted. And I also wouldn't say she's that competent a leader, I mean the she has consistently lost more and more seats to the Republicans after all...
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As I cited above, he's been asking for the Congress to pass immigration reform forever, and submitted his own outline in January 2013, and the Senate passed a bill in 2013. The House failed to act - didn't pass anything.

And what I'm referring to with Pelosi is her ability as Speaker, not as national chair of DNC or whatever. She controlled her troops - if she needed 218 votes, she got 218, and she damn well never (that I recall) was embarrassed by her progressive caucus double crossing her and her Whip and not delivering the votes she was promised. Boehner has none of that control or ability to lead and is constantly being embarrassed by his far right flank.

But beyond that, again, she is playing politics with America's security, or at least that's what many on the left are saying about Republicans. If she really believed that this was so important, then politics be damned man! Clearly, she doesn't believe it is, so why should the Republicans not act any differently?
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That's pretty funny - the GOP has the majority and it's Pelosi's fault because she won't rally her troops when the GOP offers her NOTHING in compromise? Seriously, that might work with the GOP faithful, but not with the rest of us. Pelosi is under no obligation to eat crap from the GOP then bail them out of a jam. It's not how it works.
 
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imo, the Dems have shot themselves in the foot. The Dems should have supported the bill that excludes funding of the Presidents EO. If the EO's on immigration are such a good deal for the country the Dems should have no problem getting a separate funding bill through both Houses to fund the EO's.

At any rate Congress continues to spend money we don't have. Is not the US borrowing about .40c of every dollar it spends.
 
JasperL said:
First of all, you have to at least acknowledge that the GOP met before inauguration and pledged to block the democrats on everything. Before inauguration. And they followed through with that. Here's one story.
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This is already not the case as Republicans did work with Obama on the Stimulus package and it passed with a lot of Republican votes that really weren't needed at the time. Also, this is all very silly, when you realize that even if the Republicans wanted to say "no" to everything, they couldn't of blocked ****. Democrats held a Super-Majority. In fact the only ones who blocked the ACA bill was other Democrats! But speaking of the ACA

JasperL said:
In case you don't want to read, Obama set up a meeting with the GOP on stimulus in his first WEEK in office. Before he got to that first meeting just with the GOP, Boehner had already gone public with pleas for the GOP to oppose it. Cantor had ALREADY promised to whip a count of ZERO GOPers in support, and that's what they did.
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So what do you expect? The big problem among progressives is this was obvious from day one, but the Democrats still believed against all evidence on things like the ACA that if they gave into some GOP demands that they'd have some GOP cross over and provide needed votes. Time and again that didn't happen. Record filibusters - shattered the old records.

There is nothing about the ACA that the Republicans wanted. There was never any demands that were "given in". Unless you're talking about all the lies that Obama told about the plan to sell it to Congress like how funds wouldn't go to support Abortion. And before you even try, don't bother bringing up the old "the IM was a Republican idea" shtick. First off, I dare you to find me a Republican that in 2009 was supporting that and you won't. The reason being that when the idea was originally proposed, it was under different circumstances (mainly the abolishment of Medicare and Medicaid). Second, it was never the Republicans that were blocking it in the first place but the Blue Dog Democrats. Which incidentally, Pelosi was glad to be rid of as they weren't progressive enough for her.

JasperL said:
Now as to immigration, you can say that Obama wasn't serious about immigration reform, but he's repeatedly said that he wants the Congress to act, and they haven't. And he submitted the outlines of reform in 2013, as you suggested. Here's the outlines from 1/29/2013.

FACT SHEET: Fixing our Broken Immigration System so Everyone Plays by the Rules | The White House

But Obama can't pass immigration reform. That requires a majority in the House and 60 votes in the Senate. You can bring Obama into this when he vetoes a bill that got through that process.
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My problem with what Obama did isn't the substance of what he did. In fact, I believe the Dream Act should of been passed. And while you can argue the fact sheet was out there for some time, the truth of the matter was that the new Republican controlled Congress didn't even get a chance to be sworn in before Obama tried his unilateral approach. What would of been the harm in laying down a real ultimatum to the new congress to pass something before going off and doing what he wanted?

Look, ultimately, Obama is just as much an ideologue as any Republican you want to point too. If this was fifteen or twenty years ago, Obama would of said he'd allow the Keystone Pipeline to go through (and another small bone, something to level the balances) in exchange for taking the Dream Act up and passing it. But Obama isn't going to even consider Keystone, no more than the Republicans want to consider the Dream Act. No one wins, and that's the state of our politics.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
Or, if Pelosi really thinks that it's so important to fund the DHS, then she wouldn't be playing chicken and would throw her support behind it. This road travels both ways you know?
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That's a blatant distortion and you know it. You've heard of arithmetic, right? The GOP has the majority in the House. They can pass anything they want, any time they're in session.

Thrilla said:
lighten up.. i'm regurgitating the kind of spin/rhetoric that has been commonplace over the last few years.... push me any further, and i'll start chatting about the Democratic parties war on white heterosexual pregnant women in the private sector.
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Uh, can we have that discussion in another thread where the clock isn't ticking?

Less than 4 hours to go...
 
JasperL said:
As I cited above, he's been asking for the Congress to pass immigration reform forever, and submitted his own outline in January 2013, and the Senate passed a bill in 2013. The House failed to act - didn't pass anything.

And what I'm referring to with Pelosi is her ability as Speaker, not as national chair of DNC or whatever. She controlled her troops - if she needed 218 votes, she got 218, and she damn well never (that I recall) was embarrassed by her progressive caucus double crossing her and her Whip and not delivering the votes she was promised. Boehner has none of that control or ability to lead and is constantly being embarrassed by his far right flank.
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Pelosi and Obama are both Ideologues, who no more can find compromises or work the game than Cruz can if called up. Hell, if she was so good, it wouldn't of taken forever for the ACA to be passed after all.

JasperL said:
That's pretty funny - the GOP has the majority and it's Pelosi's fault because she won't rally her troops when the GOP offers her NOTHING in compromise? Seriously, that might work with the GOP faithful, but not with the rest of us. Pelosi is under no obligation to eat crap from the GOP then bail them out of a jam. It's not how it works.
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There's something my flight instructor once told me, and that was that whenever you have a disaster, a dozen or so things have to go wrong at the same time. While the end point of this current little crisis we got may be Republicans not passing a bill, there's plenty of blame to go around that started far before today.
 
Phys251 said:
That's a blatant distortion and you know it. You've heard of arithmetic, right? The GOP has the majority in the House. They can pass anything they want, any time they're in session.
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It's the truth. Yes the GOP have the majority, but last I checked, Pelosi has a few votes, or am I wrong?
 
Phys251 said:
Dude, this is not a matter of months or even weeks. This is a matter of hours. What kind of message does it send to the world when we can't even fund the organization that purports to stop terrorist attacks on our soil before they even happen?
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Holy crap!!

Here's what's going to happen if they don't provide funding:

1. Customs and Border Patrol will cut hours and very publically claim that Republicans forced the nation to become less secure
2. TSA will cut hours and millions of people will have to wait longer to get on airplanes. Republicans will be blamed
3. Animal and Plant Health Inspection will cut hours so that meat and veggies don't make it to the grocery store as quickly. Republicans will be blamed

The only stuff that will change will be the stuff people actually see and feel. The other 19 agencies under DHS will still keep running full throttle because nobody knows who they are or what they do.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
This is already not the case as Republicans did work with Obama on the Stimulus package and it passed with a lot of Republican votes that really weren't needed at the time.
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Not true. American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On January 28, 2009, the House passed the bill by a 244–188 vote.[7] All but 11 Democrats voted for the bill, and 177 Republicans voted against it (one Republican did not vote).[8]
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Not one GOPer voted for it. Unanimous.

Also, this is all very silly, when you realize that even if the Republicans wanted to say "no" to everything, they couldn't of blocked ****. Democrats held a Super-Majority. In fact the only ones who blocked the ACA bill was other Democrats! But speaking of the ACA

There is nothing about the ACA that the Republicans wanted. There was never any demands that were "given in". Unless you're talking about all the lies that Obama told about the plan to sell it to Congress like how funds wouldn't go to support Abortion. And before you even try, don't bother bringing up the old "the IM was a Republican idea" shtick. First off, I dare you to find me a Republican that in 2009 was supporting that and you won't. The reason being that when the idea was originally proposed, it was under different circumstances (mainly the abolishment of Medicare and Medicaid). Second, it was never the Republicans that were blocking it in the first place but the Blue Dog Democrats. Which incidentally, Pelosi was glad to be rid of as they weren't progressive enough for her.
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We don't need to relitigate the ACA, but the point is the GOP promised from day one and DID try to block Obama on everything. Record filibusters, etc. And when they do that, and follow through time after time, even on what should be non-controversial appointments, is it any wonder the Democrats quit even trying to negotiate with them. What point is negotiating with someone when they have told you, and repeatedly proved, "If you compromise with me, I'll return the favor with a big fat HELL NO vote." So, democrats quit negotiating.... It's the rational move.

My problem with what Obama did isn't the substance of what he did. In fact, I believe the Dream Act should of been passed. And while you can argue the fact sheet was out there for some time, the truth of the matter was that the new Republican controlled Congress didn't even get a chance to be sworn in before Obama tried his unilateral approach. What would of been the harm in laying down a real ultimatum to the new congress to pass something before going off and doing what he wanted?
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The GOP House wasn't going to respond to an Obama ultimatum. I edited the posts above to add that the Senate passed a bill along bipartisan lines. That's the kind of compromise you were asking for, it was done, a bill passed and the House did what they do which was say HELL NO to it.

Look, ultimately, Obama is just as much an ideologue as any Republican you want to point too. If this was fifteen or twenty years ago, Obama would of said he'd allow the Keystone Pipeline to go through (and another small bone, something to level the balances) in exchange for taking the Dream Act up and passing it. But Obama isn't going to even consider Keystone, no more than the Republicans want to consider the Dream Act. No one wins, and that's the state of our politics.
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I don't know if that's true or not. To my knowledge that kind of deal hasn't ever been proposed.

I'm not blaming the environment all on the GOP either - this has been a process long in the making, going back a couple of decades, with "both sides" playing their roles.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
There's something my flight instructor once told me, and that was that whenever you have a disaster, a dozen or so things have to go wrong at the same time. While the end point of this current little crisis we got may be Republicans not passing a bill, there's plenty of blame to go around that started far before today.
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So because you believe several things have gone wrong prior, it's okay to let one more problem slide us closer to disaster?

If I EVER had an employee working for me who I knew acted that way, I'd fire them on the spot.

Hamster Buddha said:
It's the truth. Yes the GOP have the majority, but last I checked, Pelosi has a few votes, or am I wrong?
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That's irrelevant. Because the House has the majority, the ball is in their court. Period. Boehner has 3h30m to get this DONE.
 
Lutherf said:
Holy crap!!

Here's what's going to happen if they don't provide funding:

1. Customs and Border Patrol will cut hours and very publically claim that Republicans forced the nation to become less secure
2. TSA will cut hours and millions of people will have to wait longer to get on airplanes. Republicans will be blamed
3. Animal and Plant Health Inspection will cut hours so that meat and veggies don't make it to the grocery store as quickly. Republicans will be blamed

The only stuff that will change will be the stuff people actually see and feel. The other 19 agencies under DHS will still keep running full throttle because nobody knows who they are or what they do.
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Dude, don't even. I've seen how wildly off-base some of your other posts are, so I'm not quite ready to entertain the notion that you've suddenly gotten your facts straight. I shudder to think how loudly you and the other GOP voters would be howling were the Democrats to be the ones to pull this DHS stunt.
 
Phys251 said:
Uh, can we have that discussion in another thread where the clock isn't ticking?

Less than 4 hours to go...
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the clock means nothing to us here...we aren't involved in this at all....

besides, if the clock runs out, we'll be fine... the world won't end.....it will be business as usual at the DHS

P.s... don't take my rhetoric seriously here... i don't.
 
Thrilla said:
the clock means nothing to us here...we aren't involved in this at all....

besides, if the clock runs out, we'll be fine... the world won't end.....it will be business as usual at the DHS

P.s... don't take my rhetoric seriously here... i don't.
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I see. Sounds like humor in a place that shall not be named. ;)
 
Hamster Buddha said:
Pelosi and Obama are both Ideologues, who no more can find compromises or work the game than Cruz can if called up. Hell, if she was so good, it wouldn't of taken forever for the ACA to be passed after all.
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There wasn't ever any issue getting any part of ACA through Pelosi's House. She did her job like she did on all the other bills. ALL the action was on the Senate side, for ACA and everything else. The House passed it and it went to the Senate to die. Happened over and over and over and over.

There's something my flight instructor once told me, and that was that whenever you have a disaster, a dozen or so things have to go wrong at the same time. While the end point of this current little crisis we got may be Republicans not passing a bill, there's plenty of blame to go around that started far before today.
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OK, that's probably true, but at some point the House will have to face reality, and that reality is what can get through the Senate with 60 votes. Right now they're not willing to do that.
 
Phys251 said:
Dude, don't even. I've seen how wildly off-base some of your other posts are, so I'm not quite ready to entertain the notion that you've suddenly gotten your facts straight. I shudder to think how loudly you and the other GOP voters would be howling were the Democrats to be the ones to pull this DHS stunt.
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the Democrats are pulling this DHS stunt...and so are the Republicans.

that's fact.
 
Fenton said:
Obama isn't concerned about what the World thinks and niether should you.
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I think this is an ironic statement coming from a conservative who likely thinks the first thing Obama did as president was go on "an apology tour" around the world.
 
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