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Thread: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

  1. #421
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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    There was never agreement not to expand NATO. And those seeking self-determination in eastern Ukraine are Russian troops.
    Sure, apparently Gorbachev failed to trust but verify!

    Second, NATO’s expansion antagonized Russia, which thought its goodwill in ending the Cold War had not been reciprocated. Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov referred to this sentiment when he wrote that “various attempts are being made to contain Russia, including through the eastward expansion of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization in vio- lation of previous assurances given to Moscow.”3

    http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/f...pdf/pa-608.pdf

    What were these assurances? Russians, with some American support, insist that when the Cold War ended and they agreed to the reuni- fication of Germany within NATO, they received verbal assurances that NATO would not expand further. “Any extension of the zone of NATO is unacceptable,” Soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev told Secretary of State James Baker in 1990. “I agree,” Baker replied.4 But there is some confusion about what the discussions actually meant, especially since positions changed over time. The Russians were furious they had been careless or, worse, misled. “The current collision between Russia and NATO could have been avoided if the Soviet leadership had at that time . . . codified [American and German] intentions not to expand NATO,” observed foreign affairs ana- lyst Alexei Pushkov. “The Russian leadership is saying that it will not be fooled again.”5

    Brush up on just who the separatists in eastern Ukraine are, and what it is they're fighting for.

    http://time.com/74405/exclusive-pro-...stern-ukraine/
    Last edited by Montecresto; 03-04-15 at 10:17 AM.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggen View Post
    Russia did it for decades in Cuba until it became such a economic parasite that they got the hell out.
    Are you old enough to remember the showdown between JFK and the Kremlin?

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    There was never agreement not to expand NATO. And those seeking self-determination in eastern Ukraine are Russian troops.
    Like I've said often before. Why should Russia's security concerns take precedence over those of her neighbours ? Historically Its not like Russia does not have some form in this area after all. In light of what has happened to Ukraine I view the alliance of these smaller Eastern European nations as very prudent move on their part. They knew it would only be a matter of time before the return of the Russians and life as a 'buffer zone' was a none too utopian experience for them last time.

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Russians, with some American support, insist that when the Cold War ended and they agreed to the reuni- fication of Germany within NATO, they received verbal assurances that NATO would not expand further.
    What I find odd (and extremely hypocritical) is your insistence that NATO honor a verbal agreement when you have no problem with Russia violating signed documents.

    United Nations Charter
    Declaration No. 142-Н of the Soviet of the Republics of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union
    Belavezha Accords
    The Alma-Ata Protocols
    Helsinki Final Act
    Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances


    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet. -- Marine Corps General James 'Chaos' Mattis

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Are you old enough to remember the showdown between JFK and the Kremlin?
    Not only do I remember it - I more or less lived it. My dad was stationed at a SAC base in North Dakota and I went to sleep at night listening to the B-52's orbiting the base, waiting for the go signal.
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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Sure, apparently Gorbachev failed to trust but verify!

    Second, NATO’s expansion antagonized Russia, which thought its goodwill in ending the Cold War had not been reciprocated. Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov referred to this sentiment when he wrote that “various attempts are being made to contain Russia, including through the eastward expansion of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization in vio- lation of previous assurances given to Moscow.”3

    http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/f...pdf/pa-608.pdf

    What were these assurances? Russians, with some American support, insist that when the Cold War ended and they agreed to the reuni- fication of Germany within NATO, they received verbal assurances that NATO would not expand further. “Any extension of the zone of NATO is unacceptable,” Soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev told Secretary of State James Baker in 1990. “I agree,” Baker replied.4 But there is some confusion about what the discussions actually meant, especially since positions changed over time. The Russians were furious they had been careless or, worse, misled. “The current collision between Russia and NATO could have been avoided if the Soviet leadership had at that time . . . codified [American and German] intentions not to expand NATO,” observed foreign affairs ana- lyst Alexei Pushkov. “The Russian leadership is saying that it will not be fooled again.”5

    Brush up on just who the separatists in eastern Ukraine are, and what it is they're fighting for.

    Ukraine: The Pro-Russian Separatists Running Eastern Ukraine
    Your second link is year-old propaganda rendered laughable by subsequent events. Your first link is even more outdated, and is irrelevant.

    The Soviet Union demonstrated no goodwill in ending the Cold War. The USSR was defeated, and surrendered. The Soviets were in no position to demand or expect anything. We owed them nothing.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Like I've said often before. Why should Russia's security concerns take precedence over those of her neighbours ? Historically Its not like Russia does not have some form in this area after all. In light of what has happened to Ukraine I view the alliance of these smaller Eastern European nations as very prudent move on their part. They knew it would only be a matter of time before the return of the Russians and life as a 'buffer zone' was a none too utopian experience for them last time.
    Welcome back. Long time no see.

    Russian "security concerns" are like wolves worrying that sheep will gang up on them.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    What I find odd (and extremely hypocritical) is your insistence that NATO honor a verbal agreement when you have no problem with Russia violating signed documents.

    United Nations Charter
    Declaration No. 142-Н of the Soviet of the Republics of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union
    Belavezha Accords
    The Alma-Ata Protocols
    Helsinki Final Act
    Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances
    Not at all. I think that Russia should honor any agreements that they sign. However, you and I disagree that Russia's responses in Ukraine are breeches of those agreements, see?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Your second link is year-old propaganda rendered laughable by subsequent events. Your first link is even more outdated, and is irrelevant.

    The Soviet Union demonstrated no goodwill in ending the Cold War. The USSR was defeated, and surrendered. The Soviets were in no position to demand or expect anything. We owed them nothing.
    Somehow I think that Putin's expectations don't take your positions on this into account, and that he will continue to ensure that any further NATO expansion will come at a price, that he no doubt hopes will be considered too steep for the EU. Whether you think NATO has any right to push, or continue to push eastward has no bearing on Putin's perception that it does not.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Somehow I think that Putin's expectations don't take your positions on this into account, and that he will continue to ensure that any further NATO expansion will come at a price, that he no doubt hopes will be considered too steep for the EU. Whether you think NATO has any right to push, or continue to push eastward has no bearing on Putin's perception that it does not.
    I agree. That is why he must be compelled.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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