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Thread: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

  1. #331
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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    [/COLOR]

    OOOPsie! Somebody gonna have to explain that to the dead, dying, starving, impoverished Libyans.
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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Nonsense. We have done nothing impactful, and nothing we have done has impeded in the slightest on "nation building at home."
    i'd ask if you were kidding me, but i'm sure that you're not. anyway,

    As U.S. faces new threats, Pentagon seeks bigger defense budget | Reuters

    you probably won't get your hot war with Russia. you'll get the bill for part of it anyway, though. the next president will probably give you all of the war that you can stand. pretty much every frontrunner at this point is a hawk with something to prove.

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    It is a falsehood to claim that Russia sees (or ever saw) Ukraine as a buffer state. Ukraine has always been an economic prize.

    1. Napoleon ignored Ukraine when he invaded Russia.
    2. In WW1 the Germans never fought for Ukraine. Ukraine was on the front of Germany's Austro-Hungarian allies, and they retreated more than they advanced. At the time of the treaty of Brest-Litovsk (March 1918) Ukraine was already in full rebellion against the Soviet government in Moscow, so the Bolsheviks simply ceded all Ukraine to the Germans.
    3. In WW2 General Guderian considered it a terrible mistake for the German army to temporarily turn away from Moscow in the summer of 1941 in order to assault Kiev. His warning was prophetic. Ukraine was not a buffer but rather a diversion; it is not on the road to Moscow.
    As memory serves, believe Czar Alexander used what is now Ukraine as a diversion when at war with Sweden over that area
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  4. #334
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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    Right. And Ukraine should not be a member of the EU, or NATO. Recognition as a buffer state by the West would satisfy both the West's and Russia's interests. It might not sit well with Ukraine, but its either that, or they become a proxy battlefield for Russia.
    This would be a direct violation of the 1975 Helsinki treaty (to which Russia is a signatory) which states

    "every country has the right to belong or not to belong to international organizations, to be or not to be a party to bilateral or multilateral treaties including the right to be or not to be a party to treaties of alliance."

    Moreover, when Russia signed the Founding Act, it pledged to uphold "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security".

    And that includes Ukraine

    http://www.osce.org/mc/39501?download=true

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Thats one mans viewpoint. Why does that negate the wishes of the great majority Ukrainians ?



    No that is the whole point, as the responses illuminate



    If you had actually read my link you would know that no NATO action can ever be initiated without the agreement of all members. NATO is a defensive alliance it has nothing to do with the EU
    What are the wishes of the "great majority of Ukranians"?

    The last I looked a majority elected a government which was toppled with the help of the CIA. So what American can say they know what a "great majority of Ukranians want?

    I know a few and my first in-laws were born there. What 'they' want is to be left alone and not have east or west constantly picking over the carcass their wars bring them
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    This would be a direct violation of the 1975 Helsinki treaty (to which Russia is a signatory) which states

    "every country has the right to belong or not to belong to international organizations, to be or not to be a party to bilateral or multilateral treaties including the right to be or not to be a party to treaties of alliance."

    Moreover, when Russia signed the Founding Act, it pledged to uphold "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security".

    And that includes Ukraine

    http://www.osce.org/mc/39501?download=true
    Well....no.

    Ukraine has the right to want to be in NATO. And NATO has the right to never seriously consider that as a possibility.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

  7. #337
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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    What are the wishes of the "great majority of Ukranians"?

    The last I looked a majority elected a government which was toppled with the help of the CIA. So what American can say they know what a "great majority of Ukranians want?

    I know a few and my first in-laws were born there. What 'they' want is to be left alone and not have east or west constantly picking over the carcass their wars bring them
    In my many visits there between 2005 -12 I saw many EU flags flying next to Ukrainian ones even in the east. Conversely at no time did I ever see a Russian flag flying anywhere

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    Well....no.

    Ukraine has the right to want to be in NATO. And NATO has the right to never seriously consider that as a possibility.
    Well yes ...

    Thats true, but Ukraine still has the right to ask and not expect to be invaded just for doing so

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    i'd ask if you were kidding me, but i'm sure that you're not. anyway,

    As U.S. faces new threats, Pentagon seeks bigger defense budget | Reuters

    you probably won't get your hot war with Russia. you'll get the bill for part of it anyway, though. the next president will probably give you all of the war that you can stand. pretty much every frontrunner at this point is a hawk with something to prove.
    The US needs a larger defense budget. Decisions whether there will be war are not ours alone to make.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    In my many visits there between 2005 -12 I saw many EU flags flying next to Ukrainian ones even in the east. Conversely at no time did I ever see a Russian flag flying anywhere
    And THAT convinces you you know what "a great majority" of Ukrainians want......

    Don't seek a career in intelligence gathering OK?
    ""You know, when we sell to other countries, even if they're allies -- you never know about an ally. An ally can turn."
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