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Thread: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

  1. #321
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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    Yes, Ukraine should not be considered by the EU as a potential partner. Thats completely reasonable for the EU to do.

    NATO is a shadow of what it was. Im not sure you're aware of this, but thats because the USSR doesnt exist anymore. However, the potential forces behind NATO are more powerful than Russia is.. and Russia is completely aware of this. Thats why they see a buffer state as imperative. We may disagree that it is, but Mearsheimers argument is that Russia doesnt agree, and recognizes it as a matter of utmost national security. Its kinda like Cuba and the US back in the 60s.

    I can guarantee there would be an issue if Russia attacked a NATO ally, and Russia would quickly lose (unless we all lost and triggered nuclear reaction). Russia knows this.
    It is a falsehood to claim that Russia sees (or ever saw) Ukraine as a buffer state. Ukraine has always been an economic prize.

    1. Napoleon ignored Ukraine when he invaded Russia.
    2. In WW1 the Germans never fought for Ukraine. Ukraine was on the front of Germany's Austro-Hungarian allies, and they retreated more than they advanced. At the time of the treaty of Brest-Litovsk (March 1918) Ukraine was already in full rebellion against the Soviet government in Moscow, so the Bolsheviks simply ceded all Ukraine to the Germans.
    3. In WW2 General Guderian considered it a terrible mistake for the German army to temporarily turn away from Moscow in the summer of 1941 in order to assault Kiev. His warning was prophetic. Ukraine was not a buffer but rather a diversion; it is not on the road to Moscow.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Why not ? What is it you think is so reasonable about it ?
    LOL. That was the primary subject of the articles by Mearscheimer that I posted. I see in your haste to google someone who opposed his viewpoint, you didnt even bother to READ his viewpoint!

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    We hear a lot about Russia's needs and wants. Perhaps its time that NATO get to put the record straight on some of the mythology coming from the Kremlin about it. I hope you find its responses to Kremlin accusations interesting.

    http://www.nato.int/cps/eu/natohq/topics_111767.htm
    That misses the whole point.
    Its totally within the right of NATO to pour short range and long range nuclear missles into Estonia, and line men shoulder to shouder pointing rifles at Russia 24 hours per day, 7 days per week, but its not real smart. Neither is courting the Ukraine to join the EU.
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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    It is a falsehood to claim that Russia sees (or ever saw) Ukraine as a buffer state. Ukraine has always been an economic prize.

    1. Napoleon ignored Ukraine when he invaded Russia.
    2. In WW1 the Germans never fought for Ukraine. Ukraine was on the front of Germany's Austro-Hungarian allies, and they retreated more than they advanced. At the time of the treaty of Brest-Litovsk (March 1918) Ukraine was already in full rebellion against the Soviet government in Moscow, so the Bolsheviks simply ceded all Ukraine to the Germans.
    3. In WW2 General Guderian considered it a terrible mistake for the German army to temporarily turn away from Moscow in the summer of 1941 in order to assault Kiev. His warning was prophetic. Ukraine was not a buffer but rather a diversion; it is not on the road to Moscow.
    That and going into Yugoslavia slowed them by approx 6 weeks. They arrived at Moscow's doorstep a tad to late.
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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    LOL. That was the primary subject of the articles by Mearscheimer that I posted. I see in your haste to google someone who opposed his viewpoint, you didnt even bother to READ his viewpoint!
    Thats one mans viewpoint. Why does that negate the wishes of the great majority Ukrainians ?

    That misses the whole point.
    No that is the whole point, as the responses illuminate

    Its totally within the right of NATO to pour short range and long range nuclear missles into Estonia, and line men shoulder to shouder pointing rifles at Russia 24 hours per day, 7 days per week, but its not real smart. Neither is courting the Ukraine to join the EU.
    If you had actually read my link you would know that no NATO action can ever be initiated without the agreement of all members. NATO is a defensive alliance it has nothing to do with the EU

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by JANFU View Post
    That and going into Yugoslavia slowed them by approx 6 weeks. They arrived at Moscow's doorstep a tad to late.
    Agreed, and Greece, but that's a separate problem. Guderian always maintained he still would have had enough time if the army weren't diverted by the Kiev sideshow.
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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Agreed, and Greece, but that's a separate problem. Guderian always maintained he still would have had enough time if the army weren't diverted by the Kiev sideshow.
    And he would have had the time.
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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Agreed, and Greece, but that's a separate problem. Guderian always maintained he still would have had enough time if the army weren't diverted by the Kiev sideshow.
    The fact that the Germans had greatly underestimated the sheer size of the Red Army was also a major factor. German intelligence before Barbarossa was woeful

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Thats one mans viewpoint. Why does that negate the wishes of the great majority Ukrainians ?



    No that is the whole point, as the responses illuminate



    If you had actually read my link you would know that no NATO action can ever be initiated without the agreement of all members. NATO is a defensive alliance it has nothing to do with the EU


    OOOPsie! Somebody gonna have to explain that to the dead, dying, starving, impoverished Libyans.

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    The fact that the Germans had greatly underestimated the sheer size of the Red Army was also a major factor. German intelligence before Barbarossa was woeful
    They were certainly surprised by 100 divisions brought in from Siberia in December 1941; they assumed those would be left in Asia to guard against the Japanese. I've had the impression the Germans thought the Russians' great numbers would be vulnerable to the Germans' better equipment and higher quality troops.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Thats one mans viewpoint. Why does that negate the wishes of the great majority Ukrainians ?



    No that is the whole point, as the responses illuminate



    If you had actually read my link you would know that no NATO action can ever be initiated without the agreement of all members. NATO is a defensive alliance it has nothing to do with the EU
    Right. And Ukraine should not be a member of the EU, or NATO. Recognition as a buffer state by the West would satisfy both the West's and Russia's interests. It might not sit well with Ukraine, but its either that, or they become a proxy battlefield for Russia.


    Maybe if we focused in on establishing an infrastructure that was not dependent upon gas and oil, we could minimize these types of conflicts - both Russia and the Middle East are driven by oil and gas economies. The long term solution to making them less relevant and more amenable to democracy is to take away the fuel that funds their dictators and extremists.
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