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Thread: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    LOL. A wikipedia link and pointing out that an op-ed is 'opinion'.

    You have a low bar for 'crushing'.
    What Wikipedia link ?

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    I doubt he is better qualified on Russian and Ukrainian history and current affairs than Professor Motyl who has authored major works on the subject and is a specialist in this area



    So might means right then ? Why bother signing treaties or having a UN at all ? You sound like you are condoning this sort of behaviour. NATO forces in Europe are half the size they were in 1990 with those reductions set to continue so why does he need a buffer zone ? . Putin is simply using this phantom threat as an excuse for a spot of empire rebuilding nothing more

    What about what Ukraine wants or do they not count ?
    Yet you seem to have no idea who Mearsheimer is....

    Ukraine is within its rights to do whatever it wants. We in the West can only control what we do, and the best thing to do is recognize that Russia will never allow Ukraine to join the EU or NATO, and we should not encourage or allow that path.
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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    Yet you seem to have no idea who Mearsheimer is....
    I do know who he is and he is not a specialist in the area of Russia and Ukraine whereas Motyl is

    Ukraine is within its rights to do whatever it wants. We in the West can only control what we do, and the best thing to do is recognize that Russia will never allow Ukraine to join the EU or NATO, and we should not encourage or allow that path.
    On the one hand you acknowledge Ukraine has the right to do what it wants but then say on the other that it doesn't ??

    Do you believe nations should abide by the stipulations of the international treaties they sign or not ?

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    I do know who he is and he is not a specialist in the area of Russia and Ukraine whereas Motyl is



    On the one hand you acknowledge Ukraine has the right to do what it wants but then say on the other that it doesn't ??

    Do you believe nations should abide by the stipulations of the international treaties they sign or not ?
    Mearsheimer is an international expert, who, unlike Motyl, has no personal stake in the Ukrainians being victorious in the conflict.

    Ukraine should do what Ukraine needs to do. The West should not be involved and recognize her as a neutral state. Just because the Ukraine wants to join the EU does not mean it should be allowed, or even entertained.

    I think nations should abide by treaties. Russia is wrong. But that doesnt mean that they wont control Ukraine, because they are willing to put everything into it to defend their borders. The West does not need to do that, and wont ever do it. The line in the sand is best drawn West of the Ukraine.
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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    We have been largely standing aside, while the Russians are all in. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." --Edmund Burke
    we haven't been standing aside. we have been engaging in a dick measuring contest with Russia when we should be concentrating on nation building at home.

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    LOL. A wikipedia link and pointing out that an op-ed is 'opinion'.

    You have a low bar for 'crushing'.
    To defend Russian actions your man advances historical claims that are laughably inaccurate. Wikipedia suffices to dismiss such twaddle.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    we haven't been standing aside. we have been engaging in a dick measuring contest with Russia when we should be concentrating on nation building at home.
    Nonsense. We have done nothing impactful, and nothing we have done has impeded in the slightest on "nation building at home."
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    Mearsheimer is an international expert, who, unlike Motyl, has no personal stake in the Ukrainians being victorious in the conflict.
    You'll be able to cite the papers or books he has published in the past on Ukraine and Russia then ? I wonder if he has in fact ever even visited either country

    Ukraine should do what Ukraine needs to do. The West should not be involved and recognize her as a neutral state. Just because the Ukraine wants to join the EU does not mean it should be allowed, or even entertained.
    Why should Ukraine be barred from joining an economic trading partnership if she wants to ?

    I think nations should abide by treaties. Russia is wrong. But that doesnt mean that they wont control Ukraine, because they are willing to put everything into it to defend their borders. The West does not need to do that, and wont ever do it. The line in the sand is best drawn West of the Ukraine
    Defend their borders from what exactly ? NATO is a paper tiger and a shadow of what it was 25 years ago. Putin is well aware that given the continuing and swingeing defence cuts within the EU that its not going to be storming Moscow any day soon. For example the US forces presence in Europe is only a fifth of what it was in 1990 so don't blindly buy into the 'big NATO threat' propaganda from the Kremlin

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    You'll be able to cite the papers or books he has published in the past on Ukraine and Russia then ? I wonder if he has in fact ever even visited either country



    Why should Ukraine be barred from joining an economic trading partnership if she wants to ?



    Defend their borders from what exactly ? NATO is a paper tiger and a shadow of what it was 25 years ago. Putin is well aware that given the continuing and swingeing defence cuts within the EU that its not going to be storming Moscow any day soon. For example the US forces presence in Europe is only a fifth of what it was in 1990 so don't blindly buy into the 'big NATO threat' propaganda from the Kremlin
    Yes, Ukraine should not be considered by the EU as a potential partner. Thats completely reasonable for the EU to do.

    NATO is a shadow of what it was. Im not sure you're aware of this, but thats because the USSR doesnt exist anymore. However, the potential forces behind NATO are more powerful than Russia is.. and Russia is completely aware of this. Thats why they see a buffer state as imperative. We may disagree that it is, but Mearsheimers argument is that Russia doesnt agree, and recognizes it as a matter of utmost national security. Its kinda like Cuba and the US back in the 60s.

    I can guarantee there would be an issue if Russia attacked a NATO ally, and Russia would quickly lose (unless we all lost and triggered nuclear reaction). Russia knows this.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    Yes, Ukraine should not be considered by the EU as a potential partner. Thats completely reasonable for the EU to do.
    Why not ? What is it you think is so reasonable about it ?

    NATO is a shadow of what it was. Im not sure you're aware of this, but thats because the USSR doesnt exist anymore. However, the potential forces behind NATO are more powerful than Russia is.. and Russia is completely aware of this. Thats why they see a buffer state as imperative. We may disagree that it is, but Mearsheimers argument is that Russia doesnt agree, and recognizes it as a matter of utmost national security. Its kinda like Cuba and the US back in the 60s. I can guarantee there would be an issue if Russia attacked a NATO ally, and Russia would quickly lose (unless we all lost and triggered nuclear reaction). Russia knows this.
    We hear a lot about Russia's needs and wants. Perhaps its time that NATO get to put the record straight on some of the mythology coming from the Kremlin about it. I hope you find its responses to Kremlin accusations interesting.

    http://www.nato.int/cps/eu/natohq/topics_111767.htm

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