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Thread: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    we will be in a proxy war with Russia, as we are now. neither side will take it farther than that, hopefully.
    We have been largely standing aside, while the Russians are all in. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." --Edmund Burke
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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    You posted it once.

    Its initial premise is that all the facts are wrong because Mearsheimer got the location of the Napoleonic invasions wrong.
    His second premise is that NATO is 'not an impressive military alliance'.

    And I pointed out it was a bit silly, and I'm sure you'd trumpet a Ukrainian peasant woman as 'knowing more about all things Ukrainian' if she agreed with your view.

    Here's the meat of the Mearsheimer argument:

    “Putin’s actions should be easy to comprehend,” writes Mearsheimer. Ukraine is a “huge expanse of flat land that Napoleonic France, imperial Germany, and Nazi Germany all crossed to strike at Russia itself.” Since Ukraine serves as a “buffer state of enormous strategic importance to Russia … no Russian leader would tolerate a military alliance that was Moscow’s mortal enemy until recently moving into Ukraine.” By the same token, no “Russian leader [would] stand idly by while the West helped install a government there that was determined to integrate Ukraine into the West.” After all, “great powers are always sensitive to potential threats near their home territory.”
    Well this is the guy you are trashing

    Alexander J. Motyl (Ph.D., Columbia University, 1984) is professor of political science at Rutgers University-Newark. He served as associate director of the Harriman Institute at Columbia University in 1992-1998. A specialist on Ukraine, Russia, and the USSR, he is the author of six academic books and the editor or co-editor of over fifteen volumes, including The Encyclopedia of Nationalism and The Holodomor Reader: A Sourcebook on the Famine of 1932–1933 in Ukraine. Motyl’s weekly blog on “Ukraine’s Orange Blues” appears on World News Headlines, Essays and Opinion -- World Affairs Journal.

    But what would he know right ?

    Meirsheimers is an opinion piece that makes unsustainable assertions and misrepresents facts as Professor Motyl has highlighted in considerable detail. Few academics would share Meirsheimers appraisals

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Well this is the guy you are trashing

    Alexander J. Motyl (Ph.D., Columbia University, 1984) is professor of political science at Rutgers University-Newark. He served as associate director of the Harriman Institute at Columbia University in 1992-1998. A specialist on Ukraine, Russia, and the USSR, he is the author of six academic books and the editor or co-editor of over fifteen volumes, including The Encyclopedia of Nationalism and The Holodomor Reader: A Sourcebook on the Famine of 1932–1933 in Ukraine. Motyl’s weekly blog on “Ukraine’s Orange Blues” appears on World News Headlines, Essays and Opinion -- World Affairs Journal.

    But what would he know right ?

    Meirsheimers is an opinion piece that makes unsustainable assertions and misrepresents facts as Professor Motyl has highlighted in considerable detail
    ...and you found it by googling "Mearsheimer and wrong". And it's also an opinion piece, albeit a wishful one.

    The guy is a Ukrainian-American with close ties to Ukraine. I'm not surprised he'd like the Ukraine under the umbrella of the West.

    As Mearsheimer points out correctly, however, Russia will never allow that to happen, much like the UKs response would be if Russia, or Iran, were to bring Ireland into its orbit.
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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Well this is the guy you are trashing

    Alexander J. Motyl (Ph.D., Columbia University, 1984) is professor of political science at Rutgers University-Newark. He served as associate director of the Harriman Institute at Columbia University in 1992-1998. A specialist on Ukraine, Russia, and the USSR, he is the author of six academic books and the editor or co-editor of over fifteen volumes, including The Encyclopedia of Nationalism and The Holodomor Reader: A Sourcebook on the Famine of 1932–1933 in Ukraine. Motyl’s weekly blog on “Ukraine’s Orange Blues” appears on World News Headlines, Essays and Opinion -- World Affairs Journal.

    But what would he know right ?

    Meirsheimers is an opinion piece that makes unsustainable assertions and misrepresents facts as Professor Motyl has highlighted in considerable detail. Few academics would share Meirsheimers appraisals
    A crushing rebuttal.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    You posted it once.

    Its initial premise is that all the facts are wrong because Mearsheimer got the location of the Napoleonic invasions wrong.
    His second premise is that NATO is 'not an impressive military alliance'.

    And I pointed out it was a bit silly, and I'm sure you'd trumpet a Ukrainian peasant woman as 'knowing more about all things Ukrainian' if she agreed with your view.

    Here's the meat of the Mearsheimer argument:

    “Putin’s actions should be easy to comprehend,” writes Mearsheimer. Ukraine is a “huge expanse of flat land that Napoleonic France, imperial Germany, and Nazi Germany all crossed to strike at Russia itself.” Since Ukraine serves as a “buffer state of enormous strategic importance to Russia … no Russian leader would tolerate a military alliance that was Moscow’s mortal enemy until recently moving into Ukraine.” By the same token, no “Russian leader [would] stand idly by while the West helped install a government there that was determined to integrate Ukraine into the West.” After all, “great powers are always sensitive to potential threats near their home territory.”
    Actually, Napoleon's invasion barely touched Ukraine, and in the two German invasions (WW1 and WW2) Ukraine was either a sideshow or a debilitating strategic diversion. It is laughable to call Ukraine a strategic buffer for Russia. Ukraine is a rich agricultural area; that is and always has been its primary value. Soviet-era industrialization in the east brought in considerable Russian immigration.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by azgreg View Post
    What a joke. Nothing but a dog and pony show so Putin knows exactly where the 'Red Line' is that Obama will soon surrender and Putin with step over.
    The Gruber-crat is strong in this one!

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    ...and you found it by googling "Mearsheimer and wrong". And it's also an opinion piece, albeit a wishful one.
    Wishful ? If you can find anyone better qualified to comment than Prof Motyl then I'm all ears

    The guy is a Ukrainian-American with close ties to Ukraine. I'm not surprised he'd like the Ukraine under the umbrella of the West.
    Thats the whole point isn't it ? The great bulk of Ukrainians would want this too especially in light of current events

    As Mearsheimer points out correctly, however, Russia will never allow that to happen, much like the UKs response would be if Russia, or Iran, were to bring Ireland into its orbit.
    Its not Russia's remit to decide the internal affair of its neighbours and hasn't been with Ukraine since its independence in 1991 She is also in breach of treaties she signed guaranteeing the sovereignty and integrity of European states

    According to Article I of the Helsinki Final Act which established the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) in 1975, every country has the right "to belong or not to belong to international organizations, to be or not to be a party to bilateral or multilateral treaties including the right to be or not to be a party to treaties of alliance." All the OSCE member states, including Russia, have sworn to uphold those principles.

    In line with those principles, Ukraine has the right to choose for itself whether it joins any treaty of alliance, including NATO's founding treaty.

    Moreover, when Russia signed the Founding Act, it pledged to uphold "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security".

    Thus Ukraine has the right to choose its own alliances, and Russia has, by its own repeated agreement, no right to dictate that choice.

    Helsinki Final Act | OSCE

    Russia is also in breach of article 2 the UN charter too

    https://treaties.un.org/doc/publicat.../uncharter.pdf

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    A crushing rebuttal.
    LOL. A wikipedia link and pointing out that an op-ed is 'opinion'.

    You have a low bar for 'crushing'.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Wishful ? If you can find anyone better qualified to comment then I'm all ears



    Thats the whole point isn't it ? The great bulk of Ukrainians would want this too especially in light of current events



    Its not Russia's remit to decide the internal affair of its neighbours and hasn't been with Ukraine since its independence in 1991 She is also in breach of treaties she signed guaranteeing the sovereignty and integrity of European states

    According to Article I of the Helsinki Final Act which established the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) in 1975, every country has the right "to belong or not to belong to international organizations, to be or not to be a party to bilateral or multilateral treaties including the right to be or not to be a party to treaties of alliance." All the OSCE member states, including Russia, have sworn to uphold those principles.

    In line with those principles, Ukraine has the right to choose for itself whether it joins any treaty of alliance, including NATO's founding treaty.

    Moreover, when Russia signed the Founding Act, it pledged to uphold "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security".

    Thus Ukraine has the right to choose its own alliances, and Russia has, by its own repeated agreement, no right to dictate that choice.

    Helsinki Final Act | OSCE

    Russia is also in breach of article 2 the UN charter too

    https://treaties.un.org/doc/publicat.../uncharter.pdf
    Mearscheimer is better qualified to comment. Look up his credentials. Not sure if you know the difference between the University of Chicago and University of Rutgers- Newark, but let me assure you that there is a slight difference.

    And yes, Ukraine has the right to do that. And we should have the smarts to recognize it will be either a buffer state or occupied by the Russians, and not in the EU.
    Many Trump supporters have lots of problems, and those deplorables are bringing those problems to us. They’re racists. They’re misogynists. They’re islamophobic. They're xenophobes and homophobes. And some, I assume, are good people.

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    Re: US, NATO Troops Parade Near Russian Border in Estonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    Mearscheimer is better qualified to comment.
    I doubt he is better qualified on Russian and Ukrainian history /current affairs than Professor Motyl who has authored major works on the subject and is a specialist in this area

    And yes, Ukraine has the right to do that. And we should have the smarts to recognize it will be either a buffer state or occupied by the Russians, and not in the EU
    So might means right then ? Why bother signing treaties or having a UN at all because you sound like you are condoning this sort of behaviour. NATO forces in Europe are half the size they were in 1990 with those reductions set to continue so why does he need a buffer zone ? . Putin is simply using this phantom threat as an excuse for a spot of empire rebuilding nothing more

    What about what Ukraine wants or do they not count ?
    Last edited by flogger; 03-01-15 at 12:12 PM.

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