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Thread: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    My guess is that will simply be for the military to decide based on"ablity to serve" standards.....
    I think I see what you're saying, but I think the military is worried about "good order and diciplin" as it pertains to General Order #1. With gender segrigation in force, the military has to work out sleeping araingments, head & showers, even the gender if the medic who can render normal treatment.

    The military gets sued everywhere it gets something 'wrong'.

    IMO this is exactly as if racial segrigation were in force and the military was trying to figure out what to do with soldiers of a mixed background. Best answer in both cases is just end segrigation.

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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    LOL sorry I didn't read any of that because your factually made up assumption was simply wrong,
    I didn't make anything up. You began talking about "officially transgender". That was your first mistake as transgender is about a personal perception. Hell, a man wearing stilettos and a red dress is transgender. You decided that there was such a thing as "officially transgender" and that "doctors" gave them what was it? Hormonal treatments once they were diagnosed as being officially transgender? That would make them transsexuals.

    AGENT J, you really didn't read my posts or your article carefully enough. All I have to do was ask you one question which proved your post 7's central claim wrong and false: Can you find the definition of transgender for us?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Well, I for one wouldn't really care if the army decided to make unisex uniforms. However, as it stands, there are a lot of regulations in the military which aren't gender neutral. How would a policy of "openly serving" address those? What I found interesting was the wording used by the official in the article. He clearly stated transgender folks should be allowed to serve openly. I didn't know that they weren't. What I do know is that a person doesn't have to be transgender in the military anymore than a person needs to express their sexuality in the military. I know they shouldn't be kicked out for how they express their sexuality and gender when they're not in military clothing. However, there does exist a line where a person's personal life and military regulations are incompatible for professional reasons. This is one of those.
    Admitting to being transgender is said to be admitting to behavior contrary to "good order and diciplin" and is thus cause for separation, exactly as admitting to being gay used to be.

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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I think I see what you're saying, but I think the military is worried about "good order and diciplin" as it pertains to General Order #1. With gender segrigation in force, the military has to work out sleeping araingments, head & showers, even the gender if the medic who can render normal treatment.

    The military gets sued everywhere it gets something 'wrong'.

    IMO this is exactly as if racial segrigation were in force and the military was trying to figure out what to do with soldiers of a mixed background. Best answer in both cases is just end segrigation.
    well its not what im saying its what some of the people in charge of the situation are saying per the OP, The Secretary of Defense, but i do agree.

    But lalso ike i said earlier im no military expert by any means so im not familiar with all the rules and regulations.
    thank you for an example of where it could get tricky (G.O. #1)
    im curious how was this addressed with sexual orientation if it was at all?

    But Im with you, in general i wouldnt be against your idea like in "starship troopers" all grunts and solders used the same head/showers lol

    my only point is all of that is secondary The defense secretary has it right, an the serve, will they be good at it . . .then the rest we can figure out
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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Admitting to being transgender is said to be admitting to behavior contrary to "good order and diciplin" and is thus cause for separation, exactly as admitting to being gay used to be.
    Interesting. I didn't know that. I have a problem with people being kicked out of the military for their sexual and gender preferences in private. However, that still doesn't address the question of what the official meant by openly serving. As it stands, openly serving for a gay member means you can't be kicked out simply for being gay. However, being transgender and GIDs involve treatments which encourage a person to lose their fear of being ostracised by expressing their gender. Would an "openly serve" policy also give transgender the privilege to ignore certain regulations? If no, then problem solved. If yes, then I see a potential problem with a lot of discussion ahead.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I didn't make anything up. (edited out the rest because of its base on a false assumption)
    still trying huh, again good luck and thanks for the laughs!
    although this one was shorter and i probably could have read it i did not, there will be no discussion on your made up and false assumption.

    if you would like to discuss your concerns about the OP and your assumption that SEEMS (i could be wrong) to be based on how the military might just throw its current standards out the window and throw professionalism to the side you are free too. I seriously doubt that will happen but its topic related and open to discussion but any repeat of your factually wrong, made up and false assumption will be ignored
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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    still trying huh, again good luck and thanks for the laughs!
    although this one was shorter and i probably could have read it i did not, there will be no discussion on your made up and false assumption.
    There was no false assumption. You claimed that there was such a thing as "officially transgender". That is false as shown by the very definition of transgender. As a matter of fact, the "officially transgender" you were referring to is... well transsexual. I'm sorry you didn't really read your article but now is not the time to act up. If you can't find the definition of transgender, just say so. I'll find it for you.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    There was no false assumption.
    again didnt read after this
    the fact remains there was, this fact will never change
    this will be the last reply on this issue, good luck with your strawman though!
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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    again didnt read after this
    the fact remains there was, this fact will never change
    this will be the last reply on this issue, good luck with your strawman though!
    Your words don't change because you want them to:

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J
    a transgendered who is OFFICIALLY transgender as diagnosed by a doctor and has surgery or is taking hormones and is legally a female etc is a female and will conduct thier whole careers as such.
    Again, you're discussing a transsexual. Here, let's let GLAAD show you why you didn't know what you were addressing:

    GLAAD Media Reference Guide - Transgender Issues | GLAAD

    Transgender (adj.)
    An umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from what is typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. People under the transgender umbrella may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms - including transgender. Some of those terms are defined below. Use the descriptive term preferred by the individual. Many transgender people are prescribed hormones by their doctors to change their bodies. Some undergo surgery as well. But not all transgender people can or will take those steps, and a transgender identity is not dependent upon medical procedures.
    Transsexual (adj.)
    An older term that originated in the medical and psychological communities. Still preferred by some people who have permanently changed - or seek to change - their bodies through medical interventions (including but not limited to hormones and/or surgeries). Unlike transgender, transsexual is not an umbrella term. Many transgender people do not identify as transsexual and prefer the word transgender. It is best to ask which term an individual prefers. If preferred, use as an adjective: transsexual woman or transsexual man.
    It's not looking good for your understanding of transgender and transsexual. Tell us again about those "official transgender" so that I can explain to you that a man who decides to wear women's clothing on their day to day because they feel they are a woman is an official transgender person. They didn't even have to go to a doctor to be labeled as such.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Interesting. I didn't know that. I have a problem with people being kicked out of the military for their sexual and gender preferences in private. However, that still doesn't address the question of what the official meant by openly serving. As it stands, openly serving for a gay member means you can't be kicked out simply for being gay. However, being transgender and GIDs involve treatments which encourage a person to lose their fear of being ostracised by expressing their gender. Would an "openly serve" policy also give transgender the privilege to ignore certain regulations? If no, then problem solved. If yes, then I see a potential problem with a lot of discussion ahead.
    An example would be an officer who cross-dressed while 'off duty'. UCMJ still applies while off duty and so that officer could be court marshaled for 'conduct unbecoming', which would ruin their carrier if not end it outright. "Serving openly", in this example, would mean that officer could cross-dress while on their own time without fear of criminal charges.
    Last edited by Jerry; 02-24-15 at 08:56 AM.

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