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Thread: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

  1. #11
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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Aren't they already able to be open? I don't get how 'gay' didn't just include 'everyone who's not straight'.

    ??

    But the issue with things like bathrooms and clothing - What is it about this that people get all in a tizzy over. It has nothing to do with social norms and gender.

    Penis? Use a urinal.
    Vagina? Use a toilet so you can do things like change your maxi pad and sit to pee.
    Breasts? Wear clothing that's tailored to fit - not like there's a difference between a man's uniform and a women's uniform save for the design to fit body-shape differences. (ie: women in the military don't wear skirts).

    *shrug*

    Don't like it?
    Go start a fashion company and get the **** out of the military, whiny baby.

    It's not very complicated yet people really seem determine to make it ****ing complicated.
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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Aren't they already able to be open? I don't get how 'gay' didn't just include 'everyone who's not straight'.

    ??

    But the issue with things like bathrooms and clothing - What is it about this that people get all in a tizzy over. It has nothing to do with social norms and gender.

    Penis? Use a urinal.
    Vagina? Use a toilet so you can do things like change your maxi pad and sit to pee.
    Breasts? Wear clothing that's tailored to fit - not like there's a difference between a man's uniform and a women's uniform save for the design to fit body-shape differences. (ie: women in the military don't wear skirts).

    *shrug*

    Don't like it?
    Go start a fashion company and get the **** out of the military, whiny baby.

    It's not very complicated yet people really seem determine to make it ****ing complicated.


    that literally made me laugh out loud, good job A.S.!
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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    again what issues of professionalism are you referring too?
    a transgendered who is OFFICIALLY transgender as diagnosed by a doctor and has surgery or is taking hormones and is legally a female etc is a female and will conduct thier whole careers as such. Yes they will dress as a woman use women facilities and serve as a woman . . .
    that doesn't violate any professionalism.

    also not saying YOU would have a problem with it but I always laugh at the idea of the "bathroom" taboo. Not sure why one would care that a transgender man/woman use the bathroom they have transgendered too. Now open showers where everybody can see everything . . maybe but that would go both ways, im guessing the transgender man to femal will be more uncomfortable and be getting starred at 1000% more than them staring at women. Its weird to me. On average if my daughter was younger or even now the last person i worry about in the bathroom with my mother, sisters, girlfriend etc is the transgendered man who is now female.

    I think this will easily come to pass because the concerns being high are manufactured ones.
    Im not sure what your concern is? Can you be more specific and provide a reality based situation that would be one of large concern or interfere with service (which per the OP would mean they cant do the job therefore they don't get the job, they want it based on ability)
    Well, for one, our military actually deals with other militaries. What happens when a high ranking military official decides he's going to wear a moustache and dress like a woman during a meeting with Canada's military? What happens when we have a JCS member wanting to dress like a female during a congressional hearing? Nothing? Sorry. That doesn't fly in a world led by alpha male types. They can ignore the fact that the guy standing next to them likes to go home and screw another guy. Hell, they don't even get to know. However, troop morale doesn't hold up well when we're talking about their COs dressing like women and ignoring basic standards because of their own definitions of gender (remember: transgender, it'll be important soon). These are all things which actually reflect the professionalism of our military.

    As for your claims:

    a transgendered who is OFFICIALLY transgender as diagnosed by a doctor and has surgery or is taking hormones and is legally a female etc is a female and will conduct thier whole careers as such. Yes they will dress as a woman use women facilities and serve as a woman . . .
    that doesn't violate any professionalism.
    You really should read the article. Transgender speaks to a perception of one's gender. Transsexual speaks to a person undergoing a surgery or who has already done it. This article discusses transgender people. As such, it discusses people who perceive themselves to not fit under a binary definition of male/female as well as people who enjoy cross dressing etc etc. Why do I say this? The quote you missed in your liberal highlighting:

    Defense Secretary Ash Carter said during a visit to Afghanistan that transgender people should be allowed to serve openly as long as they are able to do so.
    Now, you can save yourself the embarrassment of me having explain to you the differences between transsexual and transgender or you can dig deeper so that I can post the many manifestations of GID, and the fact that transgender addresses gender expression (which includes cross dressing). Your choice.

    also not saying YOU would have a problem with it but I always laugh at the idea of the "bathroom" taboo.
    There is no bathroom taboo, see: meaning of transgender vs. meaning of transsexual. I have no problem with a transsexual person using the bathroom they have the equipment for. I doubt anybody is comfortable with a man walking into a woman's bathroom because he identifies as a woman (see: definition of transgender) and wears a dress. I also doubt soldiers would feel motivated to take orders from a long haired male captain dressed in a woman's uniform. Again, before you go any further and end up looking silly, look up the definition of transsexual and transgender. It'll amaze you to find out that they're not the same and carry very different implications.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 02-24-15 at 06:17 AM.
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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Well, for one, our military actually deals with other militaries. What happens when a high ranking military official decides he's going to wear a moustache and dress like a woman during a meeting with Canada's military? What happens when we have a JCS member wanting to dress like a female during a congressional hearing? Nothing? Sorry. That doesn't fly in a world led by alpha male types. They can ignore the fact that the guy standing next to them likes to go home and screw another guy. Hell, they don't even get to know. However, troop morale doesn't hold up well when we're talking about their COs dressing like women and ignoring basic standards because of their own definitions of gender (remember: transgender, it'll be important soon). These are all things which actually reflect the professionalism of our military.

    As for your claims:



    You really should read the article. Transgender speaks to a perception of one's gender. Transsexual speaks to a person undergoing a surgery or who has already done it. This article discusses transgender people. As such, it discusses people who perceive themselves to not fit under a binary definition of male/female as well as people who enjoy cross dressing etc etc. Why do I say this? The quote you missed in your liberal highlighting:



    Now, you can save yourself the embarrassment of me having explain to you the differences between transsexual and transgender or you can dig deeper so that I can post the many manifestations of GID, and the fact that transgender addresses gender expression (which includes cross dressing). Your choice.



    There is no bathroom taboo, see: meaning of transgender vs. meaning of transsexual. I have no problem with a transsexual person using the bathroom they have the equipment for. I doubt anybody is comfortable with a man walking into a woman's bathroom because he identifies as a woman (see: definition of transgender) and wears a dress. I also doubt soldiers would feel motivated to take orders from a long haired male captain dressed in a woman's uniform. Again, before you go any further and end up looking silly, look up the definition of transsexual and transgender. It'll amaze you to find out that they're not the same and carry very different implications.


    holy **** thats a lot of illogical hostile ranting you just made up and claimed i don't get it, wow talk about strawman and embarrassment, who are you having this conversation with????. Im WELL aware of the difference and still see ZERO concerns over this as the military already has standards to address attire but if the military sees fit to change something they are free too. Next time simply ask me if i understand the differences instead of guessing and just making stuff up youll have better success in the witchhunt and strawmen. BUT I see your issue now though, you feel that the military is just going to throw its current regulations out the window and just let people do whatever they want, holy cow all of a sudden "cross dressing" allows people to do what ever lol well when that happens you let me know.
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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    U.S. Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel - WSJ


    New SecDef signals support for transgender service
    https://www.washingtonblade.com/2015...ender-service/

    I happen to agree in this regard. My personal views of one's lifestyle are meaningless, the basic question is, can you do the job and do it well? if the answer is yes then theres not much else to discuss. This is the basic concept of how many things should be.

    Good move!
    I'm of the opinion that the distinction between male and female soldiers should be blurred to the greatest degree anyway, and so I support openly transgender people serving.

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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I'm all in favor of homophobia in the military being addressed, however this made me twitch a little:

    There are over 15,000 transgender troops serving secretly

    There are 15,000 people who don't identify with their biology. I get it. That's not a problem. Now, how are they supposed to "serve openly"? From my understanding, appearance in the military is dictated by biology. If you are a man, you can't have long hair or have earrings. I understand that these aren't worn by every transgender person, but they are worn by some. Are exceptions supposed to be made because of how a person identifies? What about women, can they wear men's uniforms if they identify as men? As I said earlier, I am all in favor of homophobia in the military being wiped out. I am all in favor of soldiers being allowed to dress as they want at home and wherever. However, there does exist a line where addressing homophobia comes into direct conflict with professionalism. This is one of those instances.
    IMO there shouldn't be male and femail uniforms. A cut more accomidating to the sex's form is one thing, but skirts vs slacks shouldn't exist. A soldier is a soldier is a soldier. Your race is American, your color is green, your scripture is the constitution, your sexual preference is killer, your political views are your orders.
    Last edited by Jerry; 02-24-15 at 07:15 AM.

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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post


    holy **** thats a lot of illogical hostile ranting you just made up and claimed i don't get it, wow talk about strawman and embarrassment, who are you having this conversation with????. Im WELL aware of the difference
    Let's start with this. Apparently, you are not aware of the differences as you seem to think that there is such a thing as "official transgender". Agent J, do you know what defines somebody who is transgender? I'll give you a clue, it's not necessarily somebody who has taken any sort of medications or even seen a doctor. That alone tells me you really don't know what you're discussing here.

    and still see ZERO concerns over this as the military already has standards to address attire but if the military sees fit to change something they are free too.
    And they are free to not change it. Their dress code concerns the military. How a transgender person decides to dress in their spare time is up to them. I'm glad you chose to avoid the absurdity of having to explain what an "official transgender" person was. It would have been really interesting to see where your "facts" come from.

    Next time simply ask me if i understand the differences
    You don't, so I don't need to ask. It's been obvious that you don't from the moment you decided to respond to my posts. I addressed the issue of being transgender in the military. Hell, that was part of the issue being addressed in your OP's quotation of the article. You decided that there was such a thing as being "OFFICIALLY transgender". From the moment you posted that, I just wrote your comments off. I love it when people prove that they don't have a clue what it is they are discussing from the minute they respond to me.

    instead of guessing and just making stuff up
    I made nothing up. I posted various scenarios and asked for clarification on how the military should deal with them. You posted about... what was it again? Officially transgender? A label you get from going to a doctor?

    youll have better success in the witchhunt and strawmen. BUT I see your issue now though, you feel that the military is just going to throw its current regulations out the window and just let people do whatever they want, holy cow all of a sudden "cross dressing" allows people to do what ever lol well when that happens you let me know.
    What was asked - and which clearly escaped you - is: What is the military is supposed to do about its current regulations as it tries to balance out the idea of letting transgender soldiers openly serve? Should it make exceptions for some soldiers? What if a cisgender soldier decides he'll grow his hair as long as he wants to and wear earrings? Can they do that? No? How is that fair to them? You see Agent J, you jumped the gun. I don't think you actually read your article and your posts are noticeably devoid of the word "FACTS". As a matter of fact, this is one of the few times I've ever seen you retreat from a discussion on gay issues so quickly. I implore you to read your articles more carefully from now on. It definitely saves you from knee jerk reactions to anybody who disagrees with you.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    If they identify as a man they'd wear a mans uniform. If they identify as a women they'd wear a women's uniform. I'm not sure what's so unprofessional about that.

    As Agent J said, as long as they're doing their jobs, why would it matter.
    Why would it matter? Because the military is a place where if your boots aren't perfectly compliant with FM670-1, if even a tiny bit of velcro shows from under your name tape, if your cover has a hint of a sweat stain, it's the end of the world your 1st Sergeant is freaking out and you get extra duty.

    Magnify that hyper-overreaction by a million if a manly faced soldier shows up in a skirt.

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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Let's start with this. Apparently, you are not aware of the differences (edited out the rest based on a false assumption)
    LOL sorry I didn't read any of that because your factually made up assumption was simply wrong, this fact will never change. I stopped right here:
    "Let's start with this. Apparently, you are not aware of the differences"
    but please continue your ranting , meltdown and strawman though. Good luck! Thanks for the laughs.
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    Re: Military May Allow Openly Transgender Personnel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    IMO there shouldn't be male and femail uniforms. A cut more accomidating to the sex's form is one thing, but skirts vs slacks shouldn't exist. A soldier is a soldier is a soldier. Your race is American, your color is green, your scripture is the constitution, your sexual preference is killer, your political views are your orders.
    Well, I for one wouldn't really care if the army decided to make unisex uniforms. However, as it stands, there are a lot of regulations in the military which aren't gender neutral. How would a policy of "openly serving" address those? What I found interesting was the wording used by the official in the article. He clearly stated transgender folks should be allowed to serve openly. I didn't know that they weren't. What I do know is that a person doesn't have to be transgender in the military anymore than a person needs to express their sexuality in the military. I know they shouldn't be kicked out for how they express their sexuality and gender when they're not in military clothing. However, there does exist a line where a person's personal life and military regulations are incompatible for professional reasons. This is one of those.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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