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Rudy Giuliani: President Obama doesn’t love America[W:649]

Re: Giuliani, what a freak

What parts specifically? (BTW, you do know you can be POTUS and still advocate for changing some parts of the socio-economic/socio-political culture you believe have been ineffectual on balance and still love the country as a whole, right? Just checking...)

the " guns and God" parts come immediately to mind... but he certainly doesn't have much use for any region that didn't vote for him ( though that doesn't equate to not loving them)
it's kinda hard to say he loves these parts when they are virtually ignored, except in the cases when he decides to chastise them for their culture or beliefs.
he tolerates them because they are a part of the larger union, which he no doubts loves.

it's kinda like saying " i love my family"... but still having a few relatives you can't stand.

but as I said, I think he loves the country overall.. no doubt about it.
 
Hey, you make such an easy target. Some people might forget the welcome Canada gave to draft dodgers during the Vietnam War. I don't.

Canada generally welcomes anyone who seeks a better life in our country. Many of the draft dodgers became Canadian citizens, even after being pardoned by Ford and Carter.

I guess you also disparage the around 5,000 Canadians who served with the US in Vietnam during the war. I'm guessing the Americans who served with them don't dismiss them so easily.
 
Re: Rudy Giuliani: President Obama doesn’t love America

Here's a quick quiz:
1) Who promised to fundamentally transform the United States?
( ) Barack Obama
( ) Rudy Giuliani


Short essay question for extra credit:
Why would you want to fundamentally transform something you love?

If the "system" is broken and doesn't work fairly or equitably for everyone, then you should make efforts to change it. That's part of what being a leader is all about: identify problems, offer solutions.

Overall, it's about having a vision (for the country) and being able to articulate same and convince those you lead to follow you. Unfortunately, too many people believe that "change" means "dismantle" when it could be as simple as "tweak, improve or modify" even if such changes means doing things differently than we've done them before.

I think the problem too many of us have is we get stuck in our ideological view points and refuse to listen to reason or consider anyone else's suggestions that differ from our own. I personally believe that our nation goes through cyclical changes. Some are due to society saying "ENOUGH!" and demanding changes while others stem from internal workings, such as, realizing that economic policies must change if we are to stop these cycles of economic booms and busts and provide in-roads where everyone has a change to participate in our nation's prosperity. But until people get informed and learn the truth of the matter (whatever it is requiring "fixing"), nothing really changes.
 
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Re: Giuliani, what a freak

you said the GOP wasn't smart enough to get the blacks to vote for them

I must be one of those stupid democrats your honor because I can't connect the dots.
 
Re: Rudy Giuliani: President Obama doesn’t love America

Interesting point. Be patient. Sometimes it takes 20 years or more.

"... ' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people," he said in a 2003 sermon. "God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme." - Jeremiah Wright as reported by ABC NEWS

And sometimes it neeeever quite gets there.

"Sen. Obama told the New York Times he was not at the church on the day of Rev. Wright's 9/11 sermon." - ABC NEWS

I think what got so many people - White people, in particular - pissed off (and scared) about the above is learning that Rev. Wright teaches Black theology. That doesn't make his statement wrong or incorrect. However, the perception (and perhaps rightly so) was that his comments were exclusive to how Black slaves and free Black men (people) were treated by Whites with power and influence. But if you take away the "Black -vs- White" aspect what you come away with is the truth. Anyone who has studied American history - not just Black history, but American history to which Black history is a small but significant part - understands that America does have a very checkered past where it comes to its treatment of people of color be that Black, Asian (Chinese/Japanese), Italian, Hispanic (Mexican, Cuban, Puerto Rican), Indian (Native American and now Asian). It's a pervasive mistreatment that many people even today refuse to fully acknowledge.
 
Re: Rudy Giuliani: President Obama doesn’t love America

Say what you like about Rudy but who else had the guts to stand in the rubble of 911 and think "What can this national tragedy do for ME?"
 
Re: Giuliani, what a freak

His policing tactics were utterly draconian when he was mayor of NYC.

I know the pimps and whores didn't like him much, neither did the time square porno industry. He certainly helped clean up Manhattan from a relative **** hole to something decent. Hell, I still remember seeing my first huddle of street walkin' hoes in Central Park - I don't even think we went down 42nd street nor through Columbus circle. He got results regardless of his doings in 2001 as he was mayor for 6 years before that.
 
Re: Rudy Giuliani: President Obama doesn’t love America

the " guns and God" parts come immediately to mind... but he certainly doesn't have much use for any region that didn't vote for him ( though that doesn't equate to not loving them)
it's kinda hard to say he loves these parts when they are virtually ignored, except in the cases when he decides to chastise them for their culture or beliefs.
he tolerates them because they are a part of the larger union, which he no doubts loves.

it's kinda like saying " i love my family"... but still having a few relatives you can't stand.

but as I said, I think he loves the country overall.. no doubt about it.

Sounds to me what you're saying is, "Hate the sin, not the sinner". Here's how I equate your above comments with this common Christian refrain...

(Disclaimer: The following is not intended to go off tangent and rehash the issue of gay marriage or homosexuality in general. It's only an attempt to expand on quoted commentary as expressed above.)

If I don't like what someone is doing (i.e., homosexuals) but I believe firmly in equal rights, then I'll certainly condemn the behavior (i.e., homosexuality) but fight to protect their rights to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" alongside their right to "equal protection under the law". I don't necessarily have to like what gays and lesbians do publicly or privately, but I do have to respect their rights to choose a life (and a lifestyle) that makes them happy and to share in that happiness with whomever they so please (as long as such is a consenting adult). The same thing could be said of the President's attempts to invoke changes in social and/or economic policies that have proven to exclude some while lifting up others. That said, I can love the ideals of capitalism that have helped make America one of, if not THE, greatest country on Earth, but I can hate the greed and underhandedness such dangerous and/or misguided economic policies have wroth unto the massive where so few have so much and so many have so little.

There is this pervasive inequity and unfairness that has taken root in this country where so many are left behind and so few have a chance to succeed. And while there are some people who are lazy and do want handouts and believe that they are deserving of such, there are also so many more who have come to realize that "the system of things" just hasn't worked for them despite their honorable intentions and willingness to play by the rules and do good work. These are the folks who are being squeezed in the middle - the people who see the "Robin Hood Affect" in full effect - but it's their labor that makes this possible and yet it is those at the very top and the very bottom who are reaping the benefits of their efforts.

The system needs to be changed.
 
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Re: Rudy Giuliani: President Obama doesn’t love America

You see, if one Republican said it - then there is an asinine assumption by the ignorant, that all Republicans think the same thing, hence the comment about Walker and why the media is rushing around questioning potential GOP Presidential prospects, what they think of Gulliani's comments and if they agree with it.

While I will agree this perception is true for both parties, I think people in general would just like to see someone who they believe has the potential of being the next leader of the free world speak his mind about the issue at hand and not hide behind one's Constitutional right to free speech. Put another way: Folks wanted Gov. Walker to step up to the plate and either agree fully with what Rudy Giuliani said OR condemn what some would consider slander against a sitting President.
 
Re: Rudy Giuliani: President Obama doesn’t love America

If the "system" is broken and doesn't work fairly or equitably for everyone, then you should make efforts to change it. That's part of what being a leader is all about: identify problems, offer solutions.

Overall, it's about having a vision (for the country) and being able to articulate same and convince those you lead to follow you. Unfortunately, too many people believe that "change" means "dismantle" when it could be as simple as "tweak, improve or modify" even if such changes means doing things differently than we've done them before.
But to bubba's point, if you wish to 'fundamentally transform' something, how can you love that something in its current state? Do you love your Prius if you wish to fundamentally transform it into a Trailblazer? That said, I think it was foolish of Rudy to raise the issue. It might work during a campaign, but six years into his presidency it just makes Rudy look fringie
 
Re: Rudy Giuliani: President Obama doesn’t love America

If the "system" is broken and doesn't work fairly or equitably for everyone, then you should make efforts to change it.
That's part of what being a leader is all about: identify problems, offer solutions.

Overall, it's about having a vision (for the country) and being able to articulate same and convince those you lead to follow you. Unfortunately, too many people believe that "change" means "dismantle" when it could be as simple as "tweak, improve or modify" even if such changes means doing things differently than we've done them before.

I think the problem too many of us have is we get stuck in our ideological view points and refuse to listen to reason or consider anyone else's suggestions that differ from our own.
I personally believe that our nation goes through cyclical changes.
Some are due to society saying "ENOUGH!" and demanding changes while others stem from internal workings, such as, realizing that economic policies must change if we are to stop these cycles of economic booms and busts and provide in-roads where everyone has a change to participate in our nation's prosperity. But until people get informed and learn the truth of the matter (whatever it is requiring "fixing"), nothing really changes.

Well ... a Country that's as old as ours, is supposed to live under a Constitution as we have, and may stray from it somewhat now and then but has the machinery built in to bring it back, doesn't require a fundamental change.
Especially a fundamental change that requires the elimination of checks & balances that has come about under this Administration.
And whatever cyclical societal change we're experiencing doesn't warrant a fundamental change if we still intend to live by a Constitution.
 
Re: Giuliani, what a freak

Oh I am quite familiar with polling data having worked for the Roper poll in college. People who remain in academia tend to vote Dem because they are funded publicly so all those teachers "masters" generally support the Dems leading to a silly conclusion that those with "higher education" supporting Dems must mean "smarter" people favor welfare socialism

That's not what you stated earlier...

The least educated people are most likely to vote Democrat

Not really. Every election that has been tracked, HS dropouts have favored Democrats

So, which is it? Academics or the less educated....HS drop-outs because it can't be both.

EDIT: Just came across TD's later retort to the above...:shock:

The most popular graduate degree in this country is a teaching masters. THe people who get them are generally not the cream of the crop of college students. Lawyers also support the Dems very strongly-even civil defense attorneys because the threat of lawsuits make them money. Those are the two most common advanced degrees. PhDs who mainly work in academic arenas which are dependent on government grants are also heavily leftist. The ivory tower appeals to the utopianistic pillow headed views of welfare socialists as well.

People in private industry with MBAs, advanced engineering degrees or MDs are far more likely to support the GOP. what it comes down to is not "does education make you more liable to vote one way" but more-is a certain strata more likely to have government jobs or private sector jobs.

drop outs and the groups with the least amount of education culturally have always been supporters of the Democrats

There are quite a few things wrong with the above not the least of which is if you have a Masters Degree you're a long way from being "uneducated" or even "uninformed" about what takes place in America or its national history. Moreover, I seriously doubt lawyers will vote Democrat on the off chance they'll get lucky and win a civil law suite defending some uneducated smuck.

Talk about putting your junk out their, getting it stepped on and then ratcheting the old party tag line back all while doubling down and grasping at straws in the process. :lamo

Republican Administrations issue R&D grants to colleges and universities same as Democrat Administrations do. To think that grant approvals are one-sided based on party ideology is foolish. You apply for grants because you need the funding. Period.

However, you're right that in today's economic climate bereft with a strong Conservative bent and a corporate culture led by GOP supporters it's very understandable why these corporate CEOs would vote Republican! They want the "corporate welfare" with it's many tax credits and generous tax deductions (aka, "tax loopholes") to continue. Yes, I very much understand all the "keep more of what you own/less taxes on job creators..." arguments. I just don't believe the hype as the evidence of corporate elites using "their money" to create jobs on their own without government tax incentives and the wealth will magically trickle-down to the rest of us just hasn't come true. For if such were true, why would the gap between the rich, the poor and the middle-class continue to widen? Why would there be a 1% -vs- 99%?

DON'T BELIEVE THE GOP PROSPERITY HYPE!
 
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Re: Rudy Giuliani: President Obama doesn’t love America

While I will agree this perception is true for both parties, I think people in general would just like to see someone who they believe has the potential of being the next leader of the free world speak his mind about the issue at hand and not hide behind one's Constitutional right to free speech. Put another way: Folks wanted Gov. Walker to step up to the plate and either agree fully with what Rudy Giuliani said OR condemn what some would consider slander against a sitting President.

A slander Obama himself levied against a sitting President, G.W. Bush in 2008. The irony on this one is way too thick from the left.
 
Re: Rudy Giuliani: President Obama doesn’t love America

I think what got so many people - White people, in particular - pissed off (and scared) about the above is learning that Rev. Wright teaches Black theology. That doesn't make his statement wrong or incorrect. However, the perception (and perhaps rightly so) was that his comments were exclusive to how Black slaves and free Black men (people) were treated by Whites with power and influence. But if you take away the "Black -vs- White" aspect what you come away with is the truth. Anyone who has studied American history - not just Black history, but American history to which Black history is a small but significant part - understands that America does have a very checkered past where it comes to its treatment of people of color be that Black, Asian (Chinese/Japanese), Italian, Hispanic (Mexican, Cuban, Puerto Rican), Indian (Native American and now Asian). It's a pervasive mistreatment that many people even today refuse to fully acknowledge.


Actually what got so many Americans suspicious is why Obama was drinking all that Wright stuff in and then kept denying it.
And then after a quick review of his other influences such as ...

Anne Dunham (his mom, they called her Anarchist Annie)
Frank Marshall Davis
Bill Ayers
Harold Washington
ACORN
Harry Boyte
Socialist Scholars Conferences
Democrat Socialists of America
Wright
Pfleger
Van Jones
Midwest Academy
Cornell West
George Soros
Saul Alinsky

"every social proposal that we make must be couched in terms of how it will strengthen capitalism." Socialists Steve Max & Harry Boyte, a couple of Obama's community organizer mentors and Midwest Academy honchos ...
"Pick the Target, Freeze It, Personalize It and Polarize It." - Saul Alinsky, Rules for Radicals.

... was explored, it demonstrated a great deal more about the man.

And don't you think it's curious that his background doesn't have any counter balance to those influences?
 
Re: Rudy Giuliani: President Obama doesn’t love America

A slander Obama himself levied against a sitting President, G.W. Bush in 2008. The irony on this one is way too thick from the left.

I don't know about slander, but his entire point in that is lost. Because if it was un patriotic for Bush to double the national debt (and it is) then its un patriotic for him to have now doubled the national debt as well.
 
Re: Rudy Giuliani: President Obama doesn’t love America

Actually what got so many Americans suspicious is why Obama was drinking all that Wright stuff in and then kept denying it.
And then after a quick review of his other influences such as ...



... was explored, it demonstrated a great deal more about the man.

And don't you think it's curious that his background doesn't have any counter balance to those influences?

Actually, it does.

I've read his book, "Dreams from my Father," (as well as, "Audacity of Hope" and a few others about the man) and it does illustrate that the President had a very diverse background growing up. It wasn't until after he graduated from high school and switched colleges did his social and cultural views begin to change. And while I would admit that many of the views he has concerning "a great society" didn't being to take shape until he became a Community Organizer in Chicago, his beliefs that White Privilege is, in fact, real and that minorities - of all types - did and continue to receive the short end of the stick only reinforced in his mind, I'm sure, the belief that socio-economic reforms were necessary if this country were to ever return to an "All-In" approach to national prosperity where everyone has a piece of the action and an opportunity to succeed. I find nothing wrong with that if, in deed, the great "social contract" with America has, in fact, been broken.
 
Canada generally welcomes anyone who seeks a better life in our country. Many of the draft dodgers became Canadian citizens, even after being pardoned by Ford and Carter.

I guess you also disparage the around 5,000 Canadians who served with the US in Vietnam during the war. I'm guessing the Americans who served with them don't dismiss them so easily.

Very lame effort at changing the subject. You celebrated the arrival of draft dodgers and rejoiced in the fact that you'd really put one over on the Yanks. I lived in that era. I served during the Vietnam war.
 
Re: Rudy Giuliani: President Obama doesn’t love America

Actually, it does.

I've read his book, "Dreams from my Father," (as well as, "Audacity of Hope" and a few others about the man) and it does illustrate that the President had a very diverse background growing up. It wasn't until after he graduated from high school and switched colleges did his social and cultural views begin to change. And while I would admit that many of the views he has concerning "a great society" didn't being to take shape until he became a Community Organizer in Chicago, his beliefs that White Privilege is, in fact, real and that minorities - of all types - did and continue to receive the short end of the stick only reinforced in his mind, I'm sure, the belief that socio-economic reforms were necessary if this country were to ever return to an "All-In" approach to national prosperity where everyone has a piece of the action and an opportunity to succeed. I find nothing wrong with that if, in deed, the great "social contract" with America has, in fact, been broken.

If only, like Guiliani, he'd been a draft dodger with a draft dodging mob enforcer for a father maybe we could accept him.
 
Re: Rudy Giuliani: President Obama doesn’t love America

Canada generally welcomes anyone who seeks a better life in our country. Many of the draft dodgers became Canadian citizens, even after being pardoned by Ford and Carter.


I guess you also disparage the around 5,000 Canadians who served with the US in Vietnam during the war. I'm guessing the Americans who served with them don't dismiss them so easily.


Very lame effort at changing the subject. You celebrated the arrival of draft dodgers and rejoiced in the fact that you'd really put one over on the Yanks. I lived in that era. I served during the Vietnam war.

Well, as far as the government is concerned, you're right. Trudeau's government was decisively against the Vietnam war. However, for the average Canadian, it wasn't so clear cut. Many Canadians joined the Vietnam War and fought bravely alongside Americans. From what I know, there are even Canadians amongst the list of missing soldiers in Vietnam. Canada's military itself stayed out of the war and only served to ensure that the agreements of the Paris Treaty were observed. There are even some who received the Medal of Honor. I'm not defending the actions of the Canadian government at all, what I am saying is that they're not a reflection of Canadians in general throughout of the war. More importantly, they're not a reflection of anything other than the government's policies.
 
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Re: Giuliani, what a freak

Its hard to include people who are told by their "leaders" that a vote for Bush means another black man lynched or a "vote for Bush" means another black college gets burned down

and if to get people to vote for you you have to offer them handouts paid for others-those of us who are forced to pay for the handouts aren't going to be very happy

So, now it's not "people vote Democrat because they're uneducated, liberal arts instructors or predatory attorneys". Now, it's "they vote Democrat cause they fear being lynched?"

Tell me, if their college is burned to the ground how are they suppose to get educated? Oh, that's right! They're suppose to vote Republican so their institutions of higher learning aren't destroyed by "mob violence" that can only come from the "left" all of whom are getting government handouts.

That's my comic relief for the entire weekend right there! :lamo

Hate to say it but if this is a snap shot of an educated American from the Right, we're doomed! :shock:
 
Re: Rudy Giuliani: President Obama doesn’t love America

Well, as far as the government is concerned, you're right. Trudeau's government was decisively against the Vietnam war. However, for the average Canadian, it wasn't so clear cut. Many Canadians joined the Vietnam War and fought bravely alongside Americans. From what I know, there are even Canadians amongst the list of missing soldiers in Vietnam. Canada's military itself stayed out of the war and only served to ensure that the agreements of the Paris Treaty were observed. There are even some who received the Medal of Honor. I'm not defending the actions of the Canadian government at all, what I am saying is that they're not a reflection of what Canadians in general throughout of the war. More importantly, they're not a reflection of anything other than the government's policies.

Well, they are a democracy. If they hadn't endorsed the haven for draft dodgers approach they could have let their government know. I would be interested seeing which Canadian soldiers (and I would argue they were American soldiers who happened to be from Canada) received the Medal of Honor in Vietnam. Even now, the guy from Canada who's so upset by this fully endorses the action.
 
Re: Giuliani, what a freak

really? what ethnic group in the USA consistently is at the bottom in terms of educational levels achieved, HS completion and ACT/SAT scores?

and why is it the one that votes Democrat at over 95% ?

There it is! That Grand Old Party mentality that says, "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" ignoring the real fact that legalism, unjust social pressures AND federal economic policies worked simultaneously to keep Blacks from obtaining a higher education. moving away from poverty and having opportunities to do better for themselves. The BS just keeps getting deeper and deeper while the old storylines keep being retold and resold as the truth.

Keep it coming, TD. You're making my weekend. :lol:
 
Very lame effort at changing the subject. You celebrated the arrival of draft dodgers and rejoiced in the fact that you'd really put one over on the Yanks. I lived in that era. I served during the Vietnam war.

Good for you - shame you've wasted your life being bitter. I wish you better in the future.
 
Re: Rudy Giuliani: President Obama doesn’t love America

Well, they are a democracy. If they hadn't endorsed the haven for draft dodgers approach they could have let their government know. I would be interested seeing which Canadian soldiers received the Medal of Honor in Vietnam. Even now, the guy from Canada who's so upset by this fully endorses the action.

I should have made organised that post better. When I said there were some who got the medal of honor, it went with my previous statement that Canadians joined the military. I apologise, sometimes I write things in posts, and then slice the ideas in two because I want to add in more facts.

Canada and the Vietnam War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

U.S. Army Sergeant Peter C. Lemon, an American immigrant from Canada was awarded the U.S. Medal of Honor for his valour in the conflict. (This cross-border enlistment was not unprecedented: Both the First and the Second World War saw thousands of Americans join the Canadian Armed Forces before the U.S officially declared war on Germany)[38]

Peter C. Lemon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lemon was born in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. After his military service, he attended Colorado State University, graduating in 1979 with a degree in Speech and received his Masters in Business Administration from the University of Northern Colorado in 1981,[1] where in 1998 he was proclaimed 'Humanitarian Alumni of the Year.'

Hopefully this clears it up.

(and I would argue they were American soldiers who happened to be from Canada)

I don't really understand the difference you're trying to make here. If they were born in Canada, they are Canadians.
 
Re: Giuliani, what a freak

There it is! That Grand Old Party mentality that says, "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" ignoring the real fact that legalism, unjust social pressures AND federal economic policies worked simultaneously to keep Blacks from obtaining a higher education. moving away from poverty and having opportunities to do better for themselves. The BS just keeps getting deeper and deeper while the old storylines keep being retold and resold as the truth.

Keep it coming, TD. You're making my weekend. :lol:

so why is it that Jews who came here after suffering the worst genocidal terror in known history or the boat people who fled Vietnam with nothing have -in the last 40 years, turned out more IVY phi beta kappas than blacks have in the same period of time?

BTW it wasn't the GOP that kept blacks down
 
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