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Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientation

Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
Fine, then pass a law that says nobody in any profession is allowed to refuse service to anyone for any reason, and the consumer can demand service whether the provider chooses to provide it or not. Period. That sounds fair.
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How about instead we just make doctors care for sick children and if their religious beliefs make that impossible we just yank their medical license.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

AliHajiSheik said:
Wow, have you actually read the Hippocratic Oath? I wouldn't have guessed that you were a strong advocate for this little gem: "Moreover, I will get no sort of medicine to any pregnant woman, with a view to destroy the child."
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For The Win! :lamo
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

roguenuke said:
Actually, I'm asking your opinion of the law. Should it be illegal to discriminate?

I already know it is illegal to discriminate based on the scenario I gave.
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I'm not a lawyer, and my opinion of the law isn't relevant to this story. This is the same reason I don't wander into the abortion section. Hypotheticals and emotion take over and there is no more rational posting.

Nobody was harmed here. Nobody was hurt. I don't agree with the doctor's beliefs but I also don't agree with those of you who are demanding that she put her beliefs aside for no particular reason other than "what if?".
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

Deuce said:
How about instead we just make doctors care for sick children and if their religious beliefs make that impossible we just yank their medical license.
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Can't help you with that. Maybe the AMA?
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
Rosa Parks? Okay, I'll play the Rosa Parks hypothetical, but that won't stop me from laughing at this being compared to the Rosa Parks story.

Let's see. Rosa Parks paid for a bus ticket. Same as the white people on the bus did. Their ticket allowed them to sit wherever they wanted. Hers didn't. She wasn't being treated equally. She was being ordered to move to a section of the bus against her wishes. She refused to do it.

Okay, and that has to do with the baby being seen by the doctor's partner....how again?
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So there was no harm done, the case was examined in the courts to see if there would be/was an indication of a pattern. A potentially harmful pattern. A *hypothetical* pattern.

Was it possible that Rosa Parks would have been refused admittance to the bus if there were no seats available in the back? Hypothetically, yes. Could that have eventually led to harm? Hypothetically, yes. Was this indicative of a dangerous pattern in society that had to be examined and addressed? Subjectively, yes.

And the courts did so, all based on what you describe as 'hypothetical' situations that were 'irrelevant' to the actual incident. And interestingly enough, that was a major court decision, a landmark towards creating a better country. Just from regular ol' woman on a bus...nobody in particular, just with a different skin color, livin' the 'negro lifestyle.'
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

Lursa said:
More logically, re: Rosa Parks, we can look at one woman on a bus and one bus driver. She was asked to move to another seat....at the back. No harm would have been done for her to move to the back of the bus. One person, one incident, no harm. Totally meaningless, right?

Others have attempted to make this issue clear on this type of basis, I dont see the point of more detail because apparently either it's meaningless or it's irrelevant to the OP and would be dismissed.
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IMO, this is what should be argued. Arguing about the possibility of harm to the baby is a weak argument for what should be obvious reasons by now

The issue is one of "equal, but separate" and history has proven that such segregation is harmful to the nation. Let the apologists argue that they're not the same because Jim Crow was much worse in which case their argument is "what's so bad about a little segregation?"
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

Lursa said:
So there was no harm done, the case was examined in the courts to see if there would be/was an indication of a pattern. A potentially harmful pattern. A *hypothetical* pattern.

Was it possible that Rosa Parks would have been refused admittance to the bus if there were no seats available in the back? Hypothetically, yes. Could that have eventually led to harm? Hypothetically, yes. Was this indicative of a dangerous pattern in society that had to be examined and addressed? Subjectively, yes.

And the courts did so, all based on what you describe as 'hypothetical' situations that were 'irrelevant' to the actual incident. And interestingly enough, that was a major court decision, a landmark towards creating a better country. Just from regular ol' woman on a bus...nobody in particular, just with a different skin color, livin' the 'negro lifestyle.'
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Rosa Parks was being harmed. No hypothetical about it. Not sure what this means.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

Lursa said:
Was it possible that Rosa Parks would have been refused admittance to the bus if there were no seats available in the back? Hypothetically, yes. Could that have eventually led to harm? Hypothetically, yes. Was this indicative of a dangerous pattern in society that had to be examined and addressed? Subjectively, yes.
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What harm could have come to her if she was refused admittance to the bus?
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
Rosa Parks was being harmed. No hypothetical about it. Not sure what this means.
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How was she being harmed?
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

Henrin said:
What harm could have come to her if she was refused admittance to the bus?
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If she were left somewhere and a disturbance occurred. If she had to walk thru or wait in a dangerous area to the bus stop. If she were ill and needed medical attention, on her way to a doctor......ad infinitem.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
Fine, then pass a law that says nobody in any profession is allowed to refuse service to anyone for any reason, and the consumer can demand service whether the provider chooses to provide it or not. Period. That sounds fair.
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For medical? No, there shouldn't be any reason. Most dveloped countries already don't allow that... except America, where we don't allow that based on religion, disability, or race, but do allow it if you're a woman or gay. Bigotry is alive and well in the US, and sometimes even codified.

For non-essential private businesses? Put in behavioral exceptions (rude or threatening interactions, non-payment, etc). But people who happen to be of minority status shouldn't have to wander around town trying to find someplace to serve them.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

AliHajiSheik said:
You keep shifting the frame of your argument without seeing that I'm not arguing. The origin of all laws start with someone's opinion of how something should be (in their opinion). When there is a critical mass, laws are passed. Clearly many people on this thread are upset that the law and the medical community support the actions of this physician. Their solution--there should be a law forcing the physician to do something. My solution--market forces will decide the fate of this physician.
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I haven't shifted anything. I have consistently pointed out that you are wrong to say this is about forcing people to do things they don't want to because other people want them to do it.

However, you are now shifting by pretending that this is a discussion of how laws are passed in a democratic system.
 
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Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

Lursa said:
How was she being harmed?
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Is that a rhetorical question?

I already said it:

She wasn't being treated equally. She was being ordered to move to a section of the bus against her wishes.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

roguenuke said:
Actually, I'm asking your opinion of the law. Should it be illegal to discriminate?

I already know it is illegal to discriminate based on the scenario I gave.
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You are not going to get an answer from her on this. Her position is clear on this - she will deny this has anything to do with discrimination, so asking her about other types of discrimination is just going to result in you receiving more evasions.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

Lursa said:
If she were left somewhere and a disturbance occurred. If she had to walk thru or wait in a dangerous area to the bus stop. If she were ill and needed medical attention, on her way to a doctor......ad infinitem.
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So either because of decisions she made on her own or because of illness.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
Rosa Parks? Okay, I'll play the Rosa Parks hypothetical, but that won't stop me from laughing at this being compared to the Rosa Parks story.

Let's see. Rosa Parks paid for a bus ticket. Same as the white people on the bus did. Their ticket allowed them to sit wherever they wanted. Hers didn't. She wasn't being treated equally. She was being ordered to move to a section of the bus against her wishes. She refused to do it.

Okay, and that has to do with the baby being seen by the doctor's partner....how again?
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You can laugh if you want. Claudette Colvin is the first one to have a bus incident. The media just preferred Rosa Parks.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

prometeus said:
Well at least Dr. Roi still has a brilliant future and a growing practice...


https://www.google.com/search?q=Dr....8#lrd=0x8824d78d80957ef9:0xb0fafaeb2e26b445,1

Patient Surveys for Dr. Vesna L. Roi, DO - Pediatrics - Roseville, MI
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I liked
Dr. Roi believes God talks to her, and feels confident enough to apply these "insights" to her practice of medicine. Who knows what the voices in her head will say? If you are looking for medical science, keep looking. She's more of a witchdoctor.
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:lamo
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
Is that a rhetorical question?

I already said it:

She wasn't being treated equally. She was being ordered to move to a section of the bus against her wishes.
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Being treated unequally is not a harm by itself. Someone telling you to move is also not a harm.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
I'm not a lawyer, and my opinion of the law isn't relevant to this story. This is the same reason I don't wander into the abortion section. Hypotheticals and emotion take over and there is no more rational posting.

Nobody was harmed here. Nobody was hurt. I don't agree with the doctor's beliefs but I also don't agree with those of you who are demanding that she put her beliefs aside for no particular reason other than "what if?".
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Not sure if this was posted - 46 pages to read thru so....
This little nugget was surprising. Underlined.

Doctors weigh morals, ethics in decisions on refusing services - amednews.com
Take, for example, the familiar religious prohibition on blood transfusions, a critical part of the morality of Jehovah's Witnesses. While we are generally used to thinking of Witnesses who refuse blood as patients, it is less well-known that Jehovah's Witness doctors are prohibited from administering transfusions, even to patients who are non-Witnesses, and even if the blood is needed to save the patient's life.

To my knowledge, no one defends a Jehovah's Witness doctor's right to refuse, on the basis of conscience, to administer blood to an exsanguinating non-Witness patient. Among the Witness doctors I have questioned, the consensus is to avoid being alone and on duty in any setting where patients needing transfusions might present. If necessary, they would summon another health care professional to do the procedure.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

sangha said:
There was harm done. Segregation is harmful to all of us.
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Not really, but that makes for some good soundbytes.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
Is that a rhetorical question?

I already said it:

She wasn't being treated equally. She was being ordered to move to a section of the bus against her wishes.
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But there were other seats, right?

Her wishes didnt matter. Neither did the lesbian couple's.

THere were other seats....what was the harm?

The application of 'equality' had to be established here, for this incident with RP, by the courts. Before that, she was just being asked to take another seat.

And as has been written many times, that is what will now be examined by the courts regarding the incident of the doctor telling the parents to take their baby down the hall to another doctor. The broader recognition of a harmful (to society) pattern.

I know you wont bother to recognize it here....I dont mind. The fact that you avoided RN's direct question about a very applicable example with the bi-racial baby shows you are pretty much out of steam on this. I can rely on my signature below, in green.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

This is a great opportunity to be the Gay Doc! Think of all the money one could make just healing the gay folk! Just don't have Obama care because some doctors won't take it.. does that also make them bigots?
 
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