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Thread: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientation

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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Though this is purely subjective, and has no bearing on whether the doctor does, or does not have a legal obligation to see the child, it strongly appears that the doctor's practice was not "exclusionary" in nature.

    In other words, the doctor was not say, a Jewish ultra orthodox doctor whose patients are exclusively members of the hasidic movement and who advertises for business only in Yiddish / Hebrew publications and avoids personal contact with anybody who is not fully committed to Orthodox judaism. Neither was the doctor an ultra conservative mennonite in rural Montana with a similar practice and assosciations. There is also no indication that the lesbians sought out such an "exclusionary" doctor to make a point.

    Though such a status by a doctor has no legal bearing, it would make the refusal more understandable. Likewise, the absence of such a status seems to make the doctor's refusal less supportable.
    Last edited by Cryptic; 02-25-15 at 11:22 AM.

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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    The topic is about a doctor refusing service.
    Reading comprehension and less ignorance would help. The topic is bigotry. The bigotry of the doctor is undeniable as are the numerous posts in which posters attempt to excuse or condone the doctor's bigotry.

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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    I said they have a right to refuse service for any reason and I meant that, because they do. When you own your own business, you have a right to give custom or not to whom you want. If you disagree with how someone else runs their business, don't go there, open your own, etc.

    Laws that violate their rights and extend federal authority beyond its actual enumerated powers do exist, but that's an example of our rights being violated, not indication that the rights do not exist.

    If you only want to talk about the current state of law, then rather than discuss any meta-notions about the appropriateness of such law, one would simply need to determine if Michigan has added homosexuals to the list of people you can't refuse service to. I don't know if that's the case or not in Michigan, but I would certainly propose tearing that list up and burning it rather than adding anyone else to it.
    Rights come from the collective agreeing upon them. That is a simple fact. A person could easily claim they have a right to kill anyone who insults them in the least little way or even that they are simply have a right to kill someone who is smaller them they are or not able to defend themselves (law of the jungle rights), but unless others recognize that right, it doesn't mean crap.

    In this case, the US does not recognize the right to refuse service to anyone for every reason (there are restrictions) when you own a business open to the public. Stomping your feet and claiming you have that right doesn't make it so.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by prometeus View Post
    Reading comprehension and less ignorance would help. The topic is bigotry.
    It's in news. You linked a news article about a service provider refusing service to someone.

    Your take on it is that this is bigotry that should be condemned.

    Not everyone has to read the same article and respond the same way.

    My response is that the doctor has the right to do what they did, and in this case, all they did was ask another doctor in the same group to provide service in lieu of them. Big whoop.

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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Rights come from the collective agreeing upon them. That is a simple fact.
    Absolutely, positively not. **** "the collective."

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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    Absolutely, positively not. **** "the collective."
    You live in a "collective" any time you live in a society, particularly one with agreed upon laws and rules of conduct. In our society, the collective has agreed that the most important thing is individual rights, but also recognizes that sometimes, to protect the rights of others, the well being of others, restrictions have to be placed on those rights.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You live in a "collective" any time you live in a society, particularly one with agreed upon laws and rules of conduct.
    **** "society," then. Rights are individual, not given by the collective. We are not ants, we are human beings.

    The provision of services in exchange for goods or other services should always be voluntary. You are not harmed if someone does not provide service, even if you do not like their reason for refusing to do so.


    In this case, no one was even refused anything.

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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    The topic is about a doctor refusing service. The doctor as a service provider has a right to refuse service. The topic is not you calling nota bene an ignorant apologist, which is what you did.
    `
    Technically, (I'm quibbling) the topic is that it is legal discrimination for a doctor to refuse service based on religion. Whether or not there is a legally implicit right for a doctor to refuse service is another aspect. Consider the fact that you plead "not guilty" instead of pleading "innocent." However, even if you have a constitutional right "not to do something" that generally does not exempt a person from being sued under a different law (criminal code) or under tort law codes, which differ from criminal codes.

    Case in point, a Wisconsin couple refused to get treatment for their daughter who was suffering from diabetes. The child died. While the state could not force the parents to get her treatment because of their religious beliefs, after the child's death, the state arrested the couple and charged them with "reckless homicide" to which they were found guilty. (source)

    Granted, in this case no one died because of this doctor's refusal to provide service, nonetheless, had it been an emergency and the doctor still refused treatment of service causing a person to die, despite the legal right to discriminate based on beliefs, the doctor could be tried under different laws or under "wrongful death" which can be done under civil or tort law.

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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You live in a "collective" any time you live in a society, particularly one with agreed upon laws and rules of conduct. In our society, the collective has agreed that the most important thing is individual rights, but also recognizes that sometimes, to protect the rights of others, the well being of others, restrictions have to be placed on those rights.
    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    Absolutely, positively not. **** "the collective."
    I think the concept practiced here is a hybrid:

    -Rights as concepts are inalienable and are not derived from "colllective" agreement
    -The conditions those rights can be excersized do come from collective agreement (no right is absolute).

    In short, I have an inalienable right to bear arms as a concept. The collective then decides undeer what conditions I can excercisize that right . For example, I can't "bear" a RPG somali, east Ukraine or afghani style. I have an inalienable right of free speech, but the collective says whether I can excercize that right to incite riot or terrorism (rare charges in the USA as free speech as an inalienable concept is given alot of leeway).

    The fact that the collective does have a say in under what conditions a right maybe excercized mayb e incosnsitent with hardcore libertarianism , but then perfectly libertarian societies have never existed. I dont think any will exist in the future either.

    As RougeNuke pointed out, anytime anybody lives in any kind of society, the "collective" has a legitimate say under what conditions rights can be excersized. This say can be very limited, as it here in the USA regarding freedom of speech, religion and weapons ownership. But.... it still exists, and always will.
    Last edited by Cryptic; 02-25-15 at 01:44 PM.

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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I think the concept practiced here is a hybrid:

    -Rights as concepts are inalienable and are not derived from "colllective" agreement
    -The conditions those rights can be excersized do come from collective agreement (no right is absolute).

    In short, I have an inalienable right to bear arms as a concept. The collective then decides undeer what conditions I can excercisize that right . For example, I can't "bear" a RPG somali, east Ukraine or afghani style. I have an inalienable right of free speech, but the collective says whether I can excercize that right to incite riot or terrorism (rare charges in the USA as free speech as an inalienable concept is given alot of leeway).

    The fact that the collective does have a say in under what conditions a right maybe excercized mayb e incosnsitent with hardcore libertarianism , but then perfectly libertarian societies have never existed. I dont think any will exist in the future either.

    As RougeNuke pointed out, anytime anybody lives in any kind of society, the "collective" has a legitimate say under what conditions rights can be excersized. This say can be very limited, as it here in the USA regarding freedom of speech, religion and weapons ownership. But.... it still exists, and always will.
    Our rights come from the fact that we have a Constitution, that a bigger percent of the "collective" has agreed upon, which then recognizes rights. If the larger percent of the collective tomorrow decided that they wanted to ban all firearms, they could by passing an Amendment to the US Constitution taking away the right to own firearms, essentially repealing the 2nd Amendment. Likely, even if this were done by the supermajority of the population, there would still be people that feel that this is wrong. That may be, but you still couldn't say that we have a right to own firearms in a legal sense if that right is explicitly changed by the supermajority of the collective.

    And that is where this from. There is not really any rights that are not restricted or absolute or even inalienable. They are all based on what we agree upon. It is just that some are protected more strongly than others because the supermajority agreed that protecting them was that important that it would take a huge change to the way the supermajority viewed things to change them, to get the support to change them.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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