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Thread: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientation

  1. #761
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    Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I really do not understand why you engage in a debate, but are completely unwilling to even acknowledge arguments others make. You quoted me, ignored that response, and made the same point again. So I'll quote myself:



    If you'd care to address that, we can move forward. Otherwise, there is no point 'debating' with you.



    That point has been made and addressed about 20 times. So why would I respond to this point, again? If you want to read a response to someone else, try mine to clownboy nearby.
    Where are you getting the idea that I don't understand the difference between her not approving of their lifestyle and her not wanting to be their baby's doctor? That isn't exactly an epiphany or something that you're having. She doesn't approve of them being gay. Her choice. She didn't want to be their baby's doctor so she asked her partner to do it. Wow. Big tragedy.

    Keep in mind that you were posting about her not coming to face them, and her not having the courage to explain why she didn't want to be their doctor, which, by the way, has nothing to do with what you're now posting about.

    The sole reason the baby's parents took her to the doctor's office on that day was to get a wellness check. And she got it. The end.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

  2. #762
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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    What's idiotic is the assumption that just because a person is part of a pediatric "group" that they don't have their own normal doctor. Even with most pediatric groups, parents get a doctor named as their doctor. While it is possible that that doctor may ask a patient to see someone else because they are unavailable on a specific day or at a specific time, the patient is free to wait to see their doctor at a different date or time, if their doctor is still with the group (I've actually had my doctor leave the group and was asked about getting a different doctor as my PCM). Usually, a doctor will try to see his/her patients and not defer them to other doctors even within the group.

    And yes it is possible that there is a doctor in the other group that refuses to see them, but it is not likely that doctor will be their doctor (especially if they discuss the situation with their doctor to begin with, which is quite likely given what happened to them with this doctor).
    Idiotic assumption? Interesting. You just made statements about what happens at "most pediatric groups". Are you speaking from personal experience with "most pediatric groups"? Because Aunt Spiker who also has children had a completely different experience with her kids' pediatric group, and I have had the same experience as she has. I would like to believe I get to dictate which doctor sees my kids, but I don't.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I just outlined several examples of why "access" is a subjective standard - in or out of network, 5 miles away, 100 miles away, etc. You could address those if you want...
    Actually no, they are covered already. It's the reasonable man standard. But again, the point you ignore is that no medical service or access to medical service was denied in this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Perhaps, but the beliefs of an unknown doctor are irrelevant - the relevant question is whether the other group DISCRIMINATES against gay women.
    Where are you coming up with that? The first group did not discriminate against gay women. Again, ONE doctor in the group had objections to their lifestyle, another doctor from the same group gave them service and offered to do so going forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Yes you were refused service. That in that case you could find someone else who agreed to provide service is nice, but doesn't affect that fact that the first bakery discriminated against you based on your sexual orientation.
    You failed to read and/or understand the post you responded to. Another baker at the same bakery (you know, like another doctor in the same group) was willing to bake the cake. No refusal of service.

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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    What's idiotic is the assumption that just because a person is part of a pediatric "group" that they don't have their own normal doctor. Even with most pediatric groups, parents get a doctor named as their doctor. While it is possible that that doctor may ask a patient to see someone else because they are unavailable on a specific day or at a specific time, the patient is free to wait to see their doctor at a different date or time, if their doctor is still with the group (I've actually had my doctor leave the group and was asked about getting a different doctor as my PCM). Usually, a doctor will try to see his/her patients and not defer them to other doctors even within the group.
    The patient doesn't belong to the group, the doctors do. I've had a doctor refer me to different doctors because I refused to follow his advice and quit smoking.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And yes it is possible that there is a doctor in the other group that refuses to see them, but it is not likely that doctor will be their doctor (especially if they discuss the situation with their doctor to begin with, which is quite likely given what happened to them with this doctor).
    No, in all probability, once the new group heard the story they assigned her a doctor from the group that had no objection. You know, just as the first group did.

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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Patients decide that for themselves in choosing what sort of insurance coverage they want and where they choose to live.
    I guess I don't agree that before they do that they need to poll their physician network to see which ones discriminate against gays.

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    Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Where are you getting the idea that I don't understand the difference between her not approving of their lifestyle and her not wanting to be their baby's doctor? That isn't exactly an epiphany or something that you're having. She doesn't approve of them being gay. Her choice. She didn't want to be their baby's doctor so she asked her partner to do it. Wow. Big tragedy.
    Like I said earlier - your point is clear enough: Discrimination? BFD as long as in that particular case no harm done. What some of us have been discussing are the bounds - when does the harm from discrimination rise to a level in which the law should prohibit it. You're not interested in that debate so keep making the same point 50 times that the baby got treated. We all know that and have repeatedly acknowledged it. There is a principle involved that goes beyond THIS CASE. If you can't see it or won't see it, that's your choice, but I can't imagine what's interesting about this debate to you if that's how you feel.

    So we'll agree to disagree.

    Keep in mind that you were posting about her not coming to face them, and her not having the courage to explain why she didn't want to be their doctor, which, by the way, has nothing to do with what you're now posting about.
    Keep in mind that we've discussed many things on this thread. That is ONE part of it that I've discussed in the past two days. You chose to respond to part of one comment, and that part had to do with her refusal to communicate her bigotry to the parents. You were fine with her approach and I disagreed. But there was more in that comment and in this thread beyond that - most notably the act of discriminating itself. I don't recall limiting myself to only part of the debate or only part of that doctor's actions that day.

    The sole reason the baby's parents took her to the doctor's office on that day was to get a wellness check. And she got it. The end.
    Again, that point's been made and addressed. If you think that's the end of the relevant discussion, that's your opinion. Many of us don't share that opinion. We can agree to disagree on this. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by limiting the debate. If you don't want to discuss the case beyond the facts and circumstances of this incident, then don't.

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    Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

    Unfortunately, this case makes a terrible jumping off point for the discussion many want to have. Where do a physician's personal rights end where it comes to providing medical care?

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    Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Like I said earlier - your point is clear enough: Discrimination? BFD as long as in that particular case no harm done. What some of us have been discussing are the bounds - when does the harm from discrimination rise to a level in which the law should prohibit it. You're not interested in that debate so keep making the same point 50 times that the baby got treated. We all know that and have repeatedly acknowledged it. There is a principle involved that goes beyond THIS CASE. If you can't see it or won't see it, that's your choice, but I can't imagine what's interesting about this debate to you if that's how you feel.

    So we'll agree to disagree.



    Keep in mind that we've discussed many things on this thread. That is ONE part of it that I've discussed in the past two days. You chose to respond to part of one comment, and that part had to do with her refusal to communicate her bigotry to the parents. You were fine with her approach and I disagreed. But there was more in that comment and in this thread beyond that - most notably the act of discriminating itself. I don't recall limiting myself to only part of the debate or only part of that doctor's actions that day.



    Again, that point's been made and addressed. If you think that's the end of the relevant discussion, that's your opinion. Many of us don't share that opinion. We can agree to disagree on this. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by limiting the debate. If you don't want to discuss the case beyond the facts and circumstances of this incident, then don't.
    Discrimination implies denying someone of something that is offered to others, or excluding them in participation of something that others participate in. What were the parents denied? What were they excluded from doing that the hetero parents got at the same practice on the same day?
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Of course I wouldn't be satisfied. Someone showing up to eat at a restaurant shouldn't have to wonder whether or not the owner will serve them based on their race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. If the restaurant is open to the public, and enjoys public benefits like police, roads, fire protection, protection of the court system to enforce contracts, etc. then they should be required to serve all the public.

    Of if they have standards - no shirt, no shoes, dinner jacket, no drunks, etc. - then apply those standards without regard to race, etc.
    Homosexuality is not the same as someone race or gender, I wish people would stop with that notion. And, how can someone tell someone's sexual orientation unless they're flaunting it? If a restaurant or any public meeting place wishes to exclude certain characters, yes, indeed they should be allowed to. The market will sort itself out, especially since most homophiles keep telling us that the majority of American's actively support gay rights.

    So, JasperL, in your opinion there is no compromise? Is it also safe to say that you could not envision a situation where someone who opposes homosexuality would NOT be a bigot?


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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Idiotic assumption? Interesting. You just made statements about what happens at "most pediatric groups". Are you speaking from personal experience with "most pediatric groups"? Because Aunt Spiker who also has children had a completely different experience with her kids' pediatric group, and I have had the same experience as she has. I would like to believe I get to dictate which doctor sees my kids, but I don't.
    So far, the four different pediatrician groups I've been in have worked the way I described. Now, granted, two of them were military based groups, but we still had a PCM, primary care manager or primary doctor, assigned to me and my children (I generally choose family practices rather than strictly pediatricians, if I can). If our PCM was not available, then we would see another doctor (they would ask if we wanted to see someone else or reschedule, or if I was trying to schedule an appointment for the same day, I would be asked if it was okay to see someone else). My sons have always had a primary doctor within a family care or pediatric group. They saw their primary doctor most of the time, as did I. My sons and I have the same doctor, but can see one of the others in the group. The same was true with my orthopedic doctor. He was in a group but I saw him, made appointments with him to check out my knee.
    Last edited by roguenuke; 02-24-15 at 07:41 PM.
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