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Thread: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientation

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    Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    And once again, no medical services were withheld. This is a pediatric GROUP.
    That point has been made and addressed about 20 times now.

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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    I believe the standard should rely upon effect. Does the objection prevent reasonable access to that service? In this case, different doctor, same access to services. The one doctor's objection had absolutely no impact on the availability of medical services.

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    Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    That point has been made and addressed about 20 times now.
    Yep, as was yours. You still don't seem to be getting it though.

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    Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You seem incapable of distinguishing between 1) not approving of their lifestyle, and 2) discriminating against them (refusing to provide medical services to them) because of their lifestyle.

    It's an obvious distinction, so it's a mystery why you keep missing this point.



    I've addressed this and you obviously didn't care enough to pay attention to my answers the first time, so I won't address it again.
    Now you're back to saying the problem is the doctor not approving of their lifestyle. The last post the problem was the doctor didn't have the nerve to tell them to their faces that she didn't approve. Pick a gripe, please.

    By the way, the baby got medical services that day, or did you forget?
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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    I believe the standard should rely upon effect. Does the objection prevent reasonable access to that service? In this case, different doctor, same access to services. The one doctor's objection had absolutely no impact on the availability of medical services.
    But the problem is codifying what is a subjective standard. Where do you draw a line? What if the next group was out of network and cost her $20 extra per visit? Wasn't covered at all, so $500 extra per visit? Was 5 miles away? 50 miles away? 100 miles away? Does the patient need care that day? That moment? That week? There are a thousand different ways the couple could be harmed - in this case the harm was minor, trivial even. And laws would recognize cases where the harm was catastrophic - the baby died - but there are an infinite number of situations in between.

    It's why with race, the law settled on an objective standard - open to the public, serve the public without regard to race. Period. I don't see any problem with that standard. The "rights" we're limiting are rights to discriminate - I'm actually OK with that. It seems to me an acceptable trade-off. Business owners that open their doors to the public and the benefits of that arrangement agree to restrictions on the right to pick and choose who they will and will not serve. If those restrictions are too onerous, then open a private club and you can pick and choose who you serve.

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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    But the problem is codifying what is a subjective standard. Where do you draw a line? What if the next group was out of network and cost her $20 extra per visit? Wasn't covered at all, so $500 extra per visit? Was 5 miles away? 50 miles away? 100 miles away? Does the patient need care that day? That moment? That week? There are a thousand different ways the couple could be harmed - in this case the harm was minor, trivial even. And laws would recognize cases where the harm was catastrophic - the baby died - but there are an infinite number of situations in between.

    It's why with race, the law settled on an objective standard - open to the public, serve the public without regard to race. Period. I don't see any problem with that standard. The "rights" we're limiting are rights to discriminate - I'm actually OK with that. It seems to me an acceptable trade-off. Business owners that open their doors to the public and the benefits of that arrangement agree to restrictions on the right to pick and choose who they will and will not serve. If those restrictions are too onerous, then open a private club and you can pick and choose who you serve.
    Most of the questions you pose are already answered by law. As to effect, it's not subjective at all. However, dealing with thought crimes is. Either the person has access to the medical service or they don't. In this case there was NO effect whatsoever.

    And as a side note, the couple's reaction is idiotic. They switched to another pediatric GROUP. It could very well be there is a doctor in the new group that holds the same beliefs as the doctor they are trying to flee.

    It's like going to a bakery for a wedding cake for your "gay" wedding. One baker there says, "I don't agree with your lifestyle so I won't bake your cake, but the other fellow who bakes here has no problem with it so he will". You have NOT been refused service.

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    Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Now you're back to saying the problem is the doctor not approving of their lifestyle. The last post the problem was the doctor didn't have the nerve to tell them to their faces that she didn't approve. Pick a gripe, please.
    I really do not understand why you engage in a debate, but are completely unwilling to even acknowledge arguments others make. You quoted me, ignored that response, and made the same point again. So I'll quote myself:

    "You seem incapable of distinguishing between 1) not approving of their lifestyle, and 2) discriminating against them (refusing to provide medical services to them) because of their lifestyle.

    It's an obvious distinction, so it's a mystery why you keep missing this point."
    If you'd care to address that, we can move forward. Otherwise, there is no point 'debating' with you.

    By the way, the baby got medical services that day, or did you forget?
    That point has been made and addressed about 20 times. So why would I respond to this point, again? If you want to read a response to someone else, try mine to clownboy nearby.

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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Most of the questions you pose are already answered by law. As to effect, it's not subjective at all. However, dealing with thought crimes is. Either the person has access to the medical service or they don't. In this case there was NO effect whatsoever.
    I just outlined several examples of why "access" is a subjective standard - in or out of network, 5 miles away, 100 miles away, etc. You could address those if you want...

    And as a side note, the couple's reaction is idiotic. They switched to another pediatric GROUP. It could very well be there is a doctor in the new group that holds the same beliefs as the doctor they are trying to flee.
    Perhaps, but the beliefs of an unknown doctor are irrelevant - the relevant question is whether the other group DISCRIMINATES against gay women.

    It's like going to a bakery for a wedding cake for your "gay" wedding. One baker there says, "I don't agree with your lifestyle so I won't bake your cake, but the other fellow who bakes here has no problem with it so he will". You have NOT been refused service.
    Yes you were refused service. That in that case you could find someone else who agreed to provide service is nice, but doesn't affect that fact that the first bakery discriminated against you based on your sexual orientation.

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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Most of the questions you pose are already answered by law. As to effect, it's not subjective at all. However, dealing with thought crimes is. Either the person has access to the medical service or they don't. In this case there was NO effect whatsoever.

    And as a side note, the couple's reaction is idiotic. They switched to another pediatric GROUP. It could very well be there is a doctor in the new group that holds the same beliefs as the doctor they are trying to flee.

    It's like going to a bakery for a wedding cake for your "gay" wedding. One baker there says, "I don't agree with your lifestyle so I won't bake your cake, but the other fellow who bakes here has no problem with it so he will". You have NOT been refused service.
    What's idiotic is the assumption that just because a person is part of a pediatric "group" that they don't have their own normal doctor. Even with most pediatric groups, parents get a doctor named as their doctor. While it is possible that that doctor may ask a patient to see someone else because they are unavailable on a specific day or at a specific time, the patient is free to wait to see their doctor at a different date or time, if their doctor is still with the group (I've actually had my doctor leave the group and was asked about getting a different doctor as my PCM). Usually, a doctor will try to see his/her patients and not defer them to other doctors even within the group.

    And yes it is possible that there is a doctor in the other group that refuses to see them, but it is not likely that doctor will be their doctor (especially if they discuss the situation with their doctor to begin with, which is quite likely given what happened to them with this doctor).
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I just outlined several examples of why "access" is a subjective standard - in or out of network, 5 miles away, 100 miles away, etc. You could address those if you want...
    Patients decide that for themselves in choosing what sort of insurance coverage they want and where they choose to live.

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