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Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientation

Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

roguenuke said:
Likely though it would include a lot of people she wouldn't object to treating also.
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True enough. That's the cost of excersizing a right. Can't please everyone.
 
Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

prometeus said:
To be quite honest this did surprise me. For some reason I thought that educated people can and would rise above such blatant bigotry, but I guess that low life imbeciles exist in every walk of life.
This doctor refused to treat an infant because the parents are gay.
Lesbian couple says Michigan pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientation | 7online.com
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BS, more than likely, the pediatrician did not accept their ObamaCare. BUT it JUST had to be something to do with their sexual orientation, because that is the buzz issue right now.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

tres borrachos said:
Discrimination implies denying someone of something that is offered to others, or excluding them in participation of something that others participate in. What were the parents denied? What were they excluded from doing that the hetero parents got at the same practice on the same day?
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The doctor refused to provide the daughter with medical services because the mothers were lesbians. That's a dictionary definition of a discriminatory act.

You seem to think that because some other person provided them with medical services that no discrimination occurred. That's nonsense - the discrimination by one physician, and provision of services by another - are independent acts. The second act mitigated the harm from the first discriminatory act, but doesn't change the simple fact that the original doctor discriminated against the lesbian couple based on their sexual orientation. She said (paraphrased), "I will not treat your daughter because you are lesbians." I'm not sure what discrimination against lesbians would look like but that.

It's no different in any meaningful way than a restaurant having a black section near the kitchen, or black bathrooms and white ones, or black water fountains and white fountains. Or a bus having seats reserved for blacks, and others for whites. In all those cases blacks got services - a meal or water or a bathroom or a bus ride WERE provided. So what's the harm? No harm in your view. I don't agree.
 
Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

Chainsaw said:
BS, more than likely, the pediatrician did not accept their ObamaCare. BUT it JUST had to be something to do with their sexual orientation, because that is the buzz issue right now.
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Well, the physician said it was about sexual orientation. That was the reason given. It's you know, part of the FACTS of the case that no one involved disputes.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

sangha said:
It's what you said. If all you had complained about was the govt forcing people to do something, I would have taken a different tack and pointed out that the govt does that all the time. They force people to not murder each other, cross streets at the corner on red lights, not litter, take care of their children, etc.

So you didn't just complain that the govt forces people to do things. That's what govts do. And if you didn't claim that they were forcing people because that was what people wanted the govt to do then why did you complain about the govt forcing people to do things ?
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So you quoted me and can't tell me where the quote came from. That is bad form.

I pointed out that laws come about becomes someone had an opinion that something should be illegal or legal, or at least regulated. You drifted off in interpreting that as a discussion of the legislative process. I'm describing the power of a citizen with an opinion to gather support influence government.

Please stop being such a defender of all things government and recognize that not everyone is an anarchist.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

AliHajiSheik said:
So you quoted me and can't tell me where the quote came from. That is bad form.
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WTF are you talking about? I quoted you more than once and every time the quote had a link to the post where you said it.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

sangha said:
WTF are you talking about? I quoted you more than once and every time the quote had a link to the post where you said it.
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In post #515, you wrote this and I quote:

"but not merely because "that's what people want them to do" as you claimed originally."

I could not find where I said those words you quoted. If you can, please point it out, otherwise, don't attribute words in a quote that I didn't say. Again, that would be bad form.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

AliHajiSheik said:
In post #515, you wrote this and I quote:

"but not merely because "that's what people want them to do" as you claimed originally."

I could not find where I said those words you quoted. If you can, please point it out, otherwise, don't attribute words in a quote that I didn't say. Again, that would be bad form.
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So you would deny your own words? Your position must be incredibly weak if even you won't stick to it

AliHajiSheik said:
Isn't that what government is about, forcing people to do stuff they don't want to do because someone else thinks they should?
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Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

sangha said:
So you would deny your own words? Your position must be incredibly weak if even you won't stick to it
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I stand by my words, I deny that you quoted what I wrote. Misquoting people is beneath you and a low tactic.
 
Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

Hicup said:
Homosexuality is not the same as someone race or gender, I wish people would stop with that notion.
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First of all, what are the key differences? Second, OK, so it's more like religion. How does that affect the analysis?

And, how can someone tell someone's sexual orientation unless they're flaunting it?
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Seriously? I'd love to know what you think qualifies as flaunting. Whatever it is, I'm positive that it doesn't also apply to heterosexual couples - e.g. holding hands, picture of our spouse at work, maybe a picture of both of us at work, kiss hello or goodbye, essentially any show of affection outside a bedroom...

If a restaurant or any public meeting place wishes to exclude certain characters, yes, indeed they should be allowed to. The market will sort itself out, especially since most homophiles keep telling us that the majority of American's actively support gay rights.
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I don't agree, and thankfully the law agrees with me with regard to race, color, religion, sex or national origin. I think that should include sexual orientation.

So, JasperL, in your opinion there is no compromise? Is it also safe to say that you could not envision a situation where someone who opposes homosexuality would NOT be a bigot?
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If by "compromise" you mean allow businesses open to the "public" to arbitrarily deny service to individuals based on characteristics such as race, religion or sexual orientation, I guess not.

To your bigot question - I guess I really don't care what people think about homosexuality of homosexuals. Some people are opposed to drinking, others drink. We're all different. What I think is a reasonable expectation is we treat each other with common courtesy and respect despite our differences. It's not a particularly heavy lift - public businesses serve the public, black, white, Jews, Muslims, Christian, atheists, gay, straight, Hispanics, etc.
 
Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

Yes, they do. And what may have been lost in all these many pages is the fact that every day pediatricians do treat the children of gay couples and that this is a commonplace. Perhaps this story is news because what happened is extraordinary rather than ordinary.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

JasperL said:
It's no different in any meaningful way than a restaurant having a black section near the kitchen, or black bathrooms and white ones, or black water fountains and white fountains. Or a bus having seats reserved for blacks, and others for whites. In all those cases blacks got services - a meal or water or a bathroom or a bus ride WERE provided. So what's the harm? No harm in your view. I don't agree.
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Wow, seriously? You see no "meaningful" difference between a single doctor asking a colleague to provide services for a couple versus the segregation of an entire race of people mandated under state laws?

Unbelievable.
 
Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

Chainsaw said:
BS, more than likely, the pediatrician did not accept their ObamaCare. BUT it JUST had to be something to do with their sexual orientation, because that is the buzz issue right now.
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That you prefer ignorance is entirely your affair, but the reason for such a moronic post is, I must say, puzzling.
 
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Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

sangha said:
Since you denied saying them in your previous post, I'd say you have an odd way of standing by your words
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I will not be falsely quoted. Now you are using snips of what I wrote but at least this time I wrote it.

Using quotes around something I didn't write is dishonest. If you want to paraphrase what I wrote then don't use quotes.
 
Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

nota bene said:
Yes, they do. And what may have been lost in all these many pages is the fact that every day pediatricians do treat the children of gay couples and that this is a commonplace. Perhaps this story is news because what happened is extraordinary rather than ordinary.
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Yes, there are countless people of every walk of life who in a professional situation treat others with dignity, respect and professionalism. Then there are bigots and other ignorant apologists for them who do not. Quite obvious who is on which side.
 
Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

prometeus said:
Then there are bigots and other ignorant apologists for them who do not.
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Oh, the ironing.

When you are a physician running your own office, you may choose which patients you will see and not see. You have no business dictating how any other doctor's office is run.
 
Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

JayDubya said:
Oh, the ironing.

When you are a physician running your own office, you may choose which patients you will see and not see. You have no business dictating how any other doctor's office is run.
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Instead of posting more ignorant drivel at least make an attempt to address the topic.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

Taylor said:
Wow, seriously? You see no "meaningful" difference between a single doctor asking a colleague to provide services for a couple versus the segregation of an entire race of people mandated under state laws?

Unbelievable.
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If I'd wanted to compare an isolated incident to Jim Crow laws, I'd have done so. What I said was the standard - they got service, BFD - is illegitimate. And then I used some examples - A restaurant with a blacks only section, etc. If "they got service" was an appropriate standard, we could do away with much of the CRA.
 
Re: Bigotry is well and alive even among doctors.

Taylor said:
Wow, seriously? You see no "meaningful" difference between a single doctor asking a colleague to provide services for a couple versus the segregation of an entire race of people mandated under state laws?

Unbelievable.
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Try this one. Is there any meaningful difference between a mixed couple being told that the doctor that had already agreed to take their child as a patient prayed on it and found that caring for a child with mixed race parents violated his/her religious beliefs? The same situation, only difference is that instead of the parents choosing to be with someone of a gender that some in society do not approve of, the parents choose to be with someone of a race that some in society do not approve of.
 
Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

prometeus said:
Instead of posting more ignorant drivel at least make an attempt to address the topic.
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The topic is about a doctor refusing service.

The doctor as a service provider has a right to refuse service.

The topic is not you calling nota bene an ignorant apologist, which is what you did.
 
Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

JayDubya said:
The topic is about a doctor refusing service.

The doctor as a service provider has a right to refuse service.

The topic is not you calling nota bene an ignorant apologist, which is what you did.
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Actually, this is not completely true, no matter how many want to believe this. The doctor could not even with a very similar situation claim that she prayed on it and that her beliefs would not allow her to see a child with parents who were black, mixed race, Jewish, Muslim, Catholic, possibly atheist (not sure about this one, would be more likely to go to the SCOTUS than the others, but would also probably still win), etc. Civil Rights Act, along with similar laws each state has in place that usually include more classifications. In fact, had one of the parents been diagnosed with something like cerebral palsy or was missing a limb, it is possible that they too would be protected from such discrimination.
 
Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

roguenuke said:
Actually, this is not completely true, no matter how many want to believe this. The doctor could not even with a very similar situation claim that she prayed on it and that her beliefs would not allow her to see a child with parents who were black, mixed race, Jewish, Muslim, Catholic, possibly atheist (not sure about this one, would be more likely to go to the SCOTUS than the others, but would also probably still win), etc. Civil Rights Act, along with similar laws each state has in place that usually include more classifications. In fact, had one of the parents been diagnosed with something like cerebral palsy or was missing a limb, it is possible that they too would be protected from such discrimination.
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Nothing you have said changes my answer. Those laws are unjust.
 
Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

JayDubya said:
Nothing you have said changes my answer. Those laws are unjust.
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They have been ruled as constitutional, even if you feel they are unjust, meaning that those doctors cannot legally deny service to anyone they want. They are still going to be subject to some form of punishment under the law if the people discriminated against decide to file a complaint or pursue legal action. This says that they do not in fact "have a right to refuse service", or at the very least, that right is limited.
 
Re: Michigan lesbian couple says pediatrician denied baby care due to sexual orientat

roguenuke said:
They have been ruled as constitutional, even if you feel they are unjust, meaning that those doctors cannot legally deny service to anyone they want. They are still going to be subject to some form of punishment under the law if the people discriminated against decide to file a complaint or pursue legal action. This says that they do not in fact "have a right to refuse service", or at the very least, that right is limited.
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I said they have a right to refuse service for any reason and I meant that, because they do. When you own your own business, you have a right to give custom or not to whom you want. If you disagree with how someone else runs their business, don't go there, open your own, etc.

Laws that violate their rights and extend federal authority beyond its actual enumerated powers do exist, but that's an example of our rights being violated, not indication that the rights do not exist.

If you only want to talk about the current state of law, then rather than discuss any meta-notions about the appropriateness of such law, one would simply need to determine if Michigan has added homosexuals to the list of people you can't refuse service to. I don't know if that's the case or not in Michigan, but I would certainly propose tearing that list up and burning it rather than adding anyone else to it.
 
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