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Thread: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108 mill

  1. #351
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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    Quote Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
    I have written a great deal about this. I couldn't have found a better example of why it is important to adjust for inflation and population growth, both which tend to raise revenue regardless of tax policy. If one normalized for population growth and inflation, 2007 was about the same revenue as 2000. There is a burst in 2005 but economists attribute that to the housing bubble. Even with that, revenue didn't match 2000 revenue. Thus, we can conclude that reducing taxes in 2001 and 2003 did not increase government revenues although GDP did rise in each year. It's a zombie myth that lowering taxes pays for themselves and this proves it.

    Sorry - but if you believe that the US economy after 9/11 did not improve and grow as a result of the Bush era tax cuts that were fully implemented through 2003, and that they didn't assist in moving the US to virtual full employment levels in the 4.5 % unemployment range, then you must believe that there is zero that government can do to goose a stagnating or declining economy.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    There is lot's of blame to go around, but I would have to say that Bush was asleep at the wheel. If he didn't know what was going on in our economy, he should have known and he should have taken steps to prevent it or to at least lessen it.

    I certainly wouldn't call a recession that was 80% during the Bush years the "Obama Recession" or the "Reagan Recession".
    False.

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    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    Quote Originally Posted by SlevinKelevra View Post
    What a germane rebuttal.
    Actually, if this is meant to be sardonic and an attempt to deflect the message - I see a great deal of truth to the claim that Scott Walker is drawing fire, when Obama is orders of magnitude more guilty of the same accusation, yet is not covered with nearly the same vehemence.

    What I took from the original story is that Walker cut $541 million in wasteful spending not just the $1.1 million default payment. That there is still a $283 million budget shortfall is what is driving this decision - not some great quid pro quo to donors. The erroneous claim that "privatizing everything" would lead to rewarding wealthy patrons and hurting the populace is diametrically opposite to truth. History always proves the opposite - despite heavy revisionist blathering by pseudo-intellectuals.

    The Left loves to describe successful entrepreneurs as "Robber Barons" - but history actually shows the opposite. Look at the facts that we learned in the early Nineteenth century:
    government monopolies were uncontested failures - Failures so severe that the populace rose up in anger, ended the political forces that fed them, and turned them over to successful entrepreneurs. The books all preached to the young that big government was the savior and Robber Barons the nemesis, when in all actuality, it was the opposite that held true.

    What caused this was a reliance on the historical works of John L. and Barbara Hammond, who influenced all the school books that followed. They relied on the Sadler Report of 1832 that reported the Industrial Revolution was "crowded with overworked children", "hotbeds of putrid fever," and "monotonous toil in a hell of human cruelty." Charles Dickens' novels helped to codify this image.

    Would modern day Liberals feel less secure promoting big government to solve social and economic problems, if they knew in their hearts that what they learned as children was a lie? An historical review by Dr. Burton W. Folsom points out that
    Mr. Sadler, we know today, lied in his report. He was a member of Parliament and made up much of his report to gain support for a bill he wanted to see Parliament pass. Economist W. H. Hutt has described Sadler's falsification of evidence. Even Friedrich Engels, comrade of Karl Marx, concluded that "Sadler permitted himself to be betrayed by his noble enthusiasm into the most distorted and erroneous statements."
    The history of our country is clear: It was the government that charged outrageous prices and tried to pawn off shoddy merchandise, while the private businesses that supplanted them did the job right, charged lower prices, and did it without government subsidies that kept the monopolies afloat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Folsom
    The school books give the impression that robber barons stepped in to exploit whatever they could, and were a negative point in history. The lesson the books should be teaching is that in the world of commerce, the profit motive, the structure of incentives. and the stifling tendencies of bureaucrats are such that those businesses run by entrepreneurs will consistently outperform those run by the government. Instead, the authors had a bias for a strong central government. When the authors were called on these reports, they agreed that they were not reporting fact, but incorrect, unsubstantiated ideology.
    What we know today is that privatization works. It is crony capitalism that doesn't. Obama's new paradigm is resurrecting the old British failure of a "Dispensation bureaucracy" based on his executive decisions. It is not the initial Executive Order that will do the damage - but his administration's ability to offer waivers and exemptions to his sycophantic compatriots and letting their better competitors whither on the vine. Yesterday - Rush Limbaugh made a major effort to explain this.

  4. #354
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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Sorry - but if you believe that the US economy after 9/11 did not improve and grow as a result of the Bush era tax cuts that were fully implemented through 2003, and that they didn't assist in moving the US to virtual full employment levels in the 4.5 % unemployment range, then you must believe that there is zero that government can do to goose a stagnating or declining economy.
    What I believe is what the evidence suggests, namely, that there is no evidence that cutting taxes in 2001 and 2003 increased economic activity, let alone revenue. You are free to believe ideological myths, but don't think that the evidence backs up your myths. The recession after 9/11 was very short and tax-cuts wouldn't have time to influence the economy. Also remember that those tax-cuts were originally designed during the 2000 campaign to "return the surplus to the people." Obviously, the objective was to give tax-cuts and the reason followed.

    As it was, economic activity and job creation were far better under Clinton, who raised taxes than Bush, who lowered taxes, which completely undercuts the theory that those tax-cuts performed miracles.
    "I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it." --J.S. Mill

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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    Quote Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
    ...

    As it was, economic activity and job creation were far better under Clinton, who raised taxes than Bush, who lowered taxes, which completely undercuts the theory that those tax-cuts performed miracles.
    There you go with your silly facts again. Conservatives don't believe in facts, don't you know that?
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    So Bush tried but failed? Is that what you are suggesting?

    That doesn't say much about his leadership ability. Maybe he wasn't "asleep at the wheel" then, he was just outright incompetent.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    Quote Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
    What I believe is what the evidence suggests, namely, that there is no evidence that cutting taxes in 2001 and 2003 increased economic activity, let alone revenue. You are free to believe ideological myths, but don't think that the evidence backs up your myths. The recession after 9/11 was very short and tax-cuts wouldn't have time to influence the economy. Also remember that those tax-cuts were originally designed during the 2000 campaign to "return the surplus to the people." Obviously, the objective was to give tax-cuts and the reason followed.

    As it was, economic activity and job creation were far better under Clinton, who raised taxes than Bush, who lowered taxes, which completely undercuts the theory that those tax-cuts performed miracles.
    You can't have it both ways. You can't claim out of one side of your mouth that the Bush tax cuts were irrelevant because the housing boom increased revenue and out of the other side ignore that the housing bubble began in the latter stages of Clinton's first term, increasing into the Bush years, and increases in revenue on the Clinton side came out of the tech bubble which crashed in 2000 and saddled Bush with an economy that saw stock market losses surpassing $1 trillion and a significant downturn that coupled with 9/11 cratered the economy. The Bush tax cuts spurred economic growth and resulting increases in government revenue - believe it or not.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    So Bush tried but failed? Is that what you are suggesting?

    That doesn't say much about his leadership ability. Maybe he wasn't "asleep at the wheel" then, he was just outright incompetent.
    That's just totally dishonest and I presumed you were better than that. You know who controlled Congress and yet you claim Bush is incompetent. And you have the gall to claim Conservatives don't believe in facts.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    ...The Bush tax cuts spurred economic growth and resulting increases in government revenue - believe it or not.
    Lower taxes, particularly worker/consumer class tax cuts always spur economic growth, there's nothing to debate about that, however it's a tough argument to make to claim that all the economic growth was due to the tax cuts, or that the portion of growth due to the tax cuts was enough to increase the overall level of tax revenue.

    Every president, regardless of whether they increase taxation, decrease it, or leave it alone, ends up with more revenue than when they took office. Obama did, W Bush did, Clinton did, GW Bush did, Reagan did, Carter did, Ford did, Nixon did, etc.

    Correlation between changes in tax policy and economic growth obviously exists, but isn't clear at all as we also tend to have economic growth even after tax increases or status quo tax policy. It's impossible to claim that changes in taxation did this or that and actually be able to prove it beyond just theory.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

  10. #360
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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    That's just totally dishonest and I presumed you were better than that. You know who controlled Congress and yet you claim Bush is incompetent. And you have the gall to claim Conservatives don't believe in facts.
    Nothing dishonest at all. I claimed that Bush was asleep at the wheel, you proved me wrong, and you're link indicated that Bush tried to do something about the problem but failed.

    The recession happened, either Bush failed to try to prevent it, or he failed in his attempt to prevent it. You can blame his failure to prevent it on dems, they certainly hold some blame, but you can't deny that if a president is ineffective, he is ineffective, and Bush obviously had a lack of leadership ability (as does Obama). Clinton and Reagan, were much better at working with congress and with the political opposition.

    I don't praise people for effort, I praise them for success and achievement. Bush deserves no praise as he failed in preventing the Great Bush Recession.
    Last edited by imagep; 02-26-15 at 04:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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