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Thread: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108 mill

  1. #341
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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    Quote Originally Posted by imagep View Post
    When the recession ended a few months after the spendulous money started getting into the system, there is no way you can prove that the spendulous didn't contribute to at least shortening the recession. The truth is, we really don't know and will never know how much it helped.

    And you have to admit that without the Great Bush Recession, Obama would have probably never been able to get the spendulous bill through congress, so it's not totally unfair to attribute that spending to him. Also, most of the reason that the 2008-209 deficits were so large was due to a decrease in tax revenue, which was also the result of the Great Bush Recession.

    There is little difference between the way that many lefties like to "adjust" and explain away the numbers, and the way that righties do it.

    By the way, I'm not particularly "in the bag" for Obama or against Bush. I didn't vote for him either time, but I did vote for Bush. I'm just trying to look at this issue in a non-partisan way and calling things the way I see them.
    To paraphrase your second to last post, I'd say that it is either blatant dishonesty or "mis-remembering" to call the financial crisis in 2008 the Great Bush Recession. Had Bush and his administration not warned against the housing bubble and attempted to rein in Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac as far back as 2006 and if Bush and his administration had not immediately and urgently pushed through the TARP in late 2008 you might have a point. One man, even a President, is not responsible for all the economies of the world, let alone America's.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  2. #342
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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    Quote Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
    If you are trying to suggest that Mr. Obama has been equally irresponsible, that's a massive fail.



    The deficit has gotten smaller under Obama and as GDP continues to grow faster than the deficit grows, the debt becomes more and more irrelevant -- just like the massive $220 billion World War II debt did.

    Remember, Obama did have the upper-income tax-cuts expire too.
    Actually, if you want to be fully honest about it, the reductions in deficits in America can be almost fully attributable to the implementation of the sequestration and the resistance of Congressional Republicans to bend to Obama and Congressional Democrats who called for the sequestration to be rescinded. That $trillion baby had value to the current deficit situation. Even your chart above notes that significant movement in the deficit picture didn't happen under Obama until after the sequestration took effect in early 2013.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  3. #343
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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Actually, if you want to be fully honest about it, the reductions in deficits in America can be almost fully attributable to the implementation of the sequestration and the resistance of Congressional Republicans to bend to Obama and Congressional Democrats who called for the sequestration to be rescinded. That $trillion baby had value to the current deficit situation. Even your chart above notes that significant movement in the deficit picture didn't happen under Obama until after the sequestration took effect in early 2013.
    Yes, I know the conservative narrative that lower deficits are all about those fiscally conservative Republicans deficit peacocks who strut around and preen themselves on their supposed fiscal virtue. The problem is, it isn't true. In actuality, Mr. Obama submitted lower budgets and revenue is now higher. The deficit has been falling since the high in 2010 and as the economy improves, so does revenue.

    The deficit is lower because we have $1 trillion a year more in revenue.

    "I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it." --J.S. Mill

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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    To paraphrase your second to last post, I'd say that it is either blatant dishonesty or "mis-remembering" to call the financial crisis in 2008 the Great Bush Recession. Had Bush and his administration not warned against the housing bubble and attempted to rein in Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac as far back as 2006 and if Bush and his administration had not immediately and urgently pushed through the TARP in late 2008 you might have a point. One man, even a President, is not responsible for all the economies of the world, let alone America's.
    First, Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac had little to do with the Great Recession. Most of the overreach were by firms that weren't regulated and Fanny and Freddie were winding out of those loans when the others were getting deeper.

    Second, the Bush Administration did nothing to reduce the likelihood of the crash. They were de-regulators. They also has control of the House, the Senate and the WH and if they wanted to do something, they could have.
    "I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it." --J.S. Mill

  5. #345
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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Which doesn't seem relevant because they aren't anywhere near USPS prices!
    i can see you know nothing of the post office or the laws concerning them...... packages and letters.

  6. #346
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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Once again, someone who thinks that tax cuts have no effect on the economy. These don't happen in a vacuum, they have an effect on the overall economy and it is a positive one, albeit a long term one. People ignore the long term effects of tax cuts only focus on one side of the equation CHOOSING to ignore the rest of the economic impact of cutting taxes. Now, I'll probably be accused of saying that I think that taxes should be eliminated altogether (that's what usually happens in these kind of discussions), and that's not what I or almost any other person who supports tax cuts believe. Our tax base should be wide and shallow instead of the narrow and tall model that tax increase supporters want to see. We need the money in the economy, creating jobs, increasing the number of taxpayers and driving tax revenue through having a lot of taxpayers, instead of taxing fewer taxpayers even more.
    It depends on what taxes are being cut and how they are being cut.

    Taxes on the worker/consumer class are harmful to demand. Taxes on the wealthy are harmful to investment. When we have a lack of available capital, then we should cut taxes on the rich. When we don't have enough demand to support business growth, then we should cut taxes on the worker/consumer class.

    In our current situation, we have a lack of demand (although it is improving), thus cutting taxes of the non-rich would be very beneficial to our economy. It this particular point, cutting taxes on the rich would do next to nothing for improving our economy, and would only result in a higher budget deficit.

    For that matter, since unlimited amounts of money for lending can be provided by the federal reserve, our economy is no longer constrained by the amount of pooled capital, thus there will never again be an economic need to cut taxes on the rich, and there is absolutely no economic need to tax the non-rich, not even for federal revenue purposes.
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

  7. #347
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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    Quote Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
    Yes, I know the conservative narrative that lower deficits are all about those fiscally conservative Republicans deficit peacocks who strut around and preen themselves on their supposed fiscal virtue. The problem is, it isn't true. In actuality, Mr. Obama submitted lower budgets and revenue is now higher. The deficit has been falling since the high in 2010 and as the economy improves, so does revenue.

    The deficit is lower because we have $1 trillion a year more in revenue.

    How convenient that your revenue chart above starts at 2009, a year into the 2008 financial crisis and the lowest levels of revenue during and after the Bush administration. You conveniently leave out the years directly following implementation of the Bush era tax cuts in which the US government enjoyed its highest levels of revenue ever experienced - higher than those you attribute to Obama.

    untitled.jpg
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  8. #348
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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant
    Once again, someone who thinks that tax cuts have no effect on the economy. These don't happen in a vacuum, they have an effect on the overall economy and it is a positive one, albeit a long term one. People ignore the long term effects of tax cuts only focus on one side of the equation CHOOSING to ignore the rest of the economic impact of cutting taxes. Now, I'll probably be accused of saying that I think that taxes should be eliminated altogether (that's what usually happens in these kind of discussions), and that's not what I or almost any other person who supports tax cuts believe. Our tax base should be wide and shallow instead of the narrow and tall model that tax increase supporters want to see. We need the money in the economy, creating jobs, increasing the number of taxpayers and driving tax revenue through having a lot of taxpayers, instead of taxing fewer taxpayers even more.
    Your thesis is that tax-cuts are always good for the economy. If so, please explain why there has been large economic expansion after periods of tax increases and recessions after periods of tax-cuts. In fact, the greatest gains came when taxes were much higher than today. Those macro gains were also at a time when the middle class proportion of national income was greater. If you actually look at the data, instead of espousing ideology, you will see that there is no correlation between cutting taxes and economic expansion.

    "I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it." --J.S. Mill

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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    How convenient that your revenue chart above starts at 2009, a year into the 2008 financial crisis and the lowest levels of revenue during and after the Bush administration. You conveniently leave out the years directly following implementation of the Bush era tax cuts in which the US government enjoyed its highest levels of revenue ever experienced - higher than those you attribute to Obama.

    untitled.jpg
    I have written a great deal about this. I couldn't have found a better example of why it is important to adjust for inflation and population growth, both which tend to raise revenue regardless of tax policy. If one normalized for population growth and inflation, 2007 was about the same revenue as 2000. There is a burst in 2005 but economists attribute that to the housing bubble. Even with that, revenue didn't match 2000 revenue. Thus, we can conclude that reducing taxes in 2001 and 2003 did not increase government revenues although GDP did rise in each year. It's a zombie myth that lowering taxes pays for themselves and this proves it.

    "I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it." --J.S. Mill

  10. #350
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    Re: Scott Walker cut $541 million in taxes last year. Now his state will miss a $108

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    To paraphrase your second to last post, I'd say that it is either blatant dishonesty or "mis-remembering" to call the financial crisis in 2008 the Great Bush Recession. Had Bush and his administration not warned against the housing bubble and attempted to rein in Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac as far back as 2006 and if Bush and his administration had not immediately and urgently pushed through the TARP in late 2008 you might have a point. One man, even a President, is not responsible for all the economies of the world, let alone America's.
    There is lot's of blame to go around, but I would have to say that Bush was asleep at the wheel. If he didn't know what was going on in our economy, he should have known and he should have taken steps to prevent it or to at least lessen it.

    I certainly wouldn't call a recession that was 80% during the Bush years the "Obama Recession" or the "Reagan Recession".
    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    ...I'm not interested in debating someone who is trolling for an argument....
    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see a big problem with the idea that whatever the majority wants is OK.

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