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Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

Montecresto said:
No such assurances exist in foreign policy, that's naive.
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Is it? Since we went on our Imperialistic phase at the turn of the 20th century, we've since returned control of the Philippines, Panama, France, Germany, Italy( you know what, let's just go with all of Western Europe shall we?), Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan, South Korea, there's much Eastern Europe after the fall of the Wall so that's about what... another ten countries there, I could probably name fifty countries if you push me where we've been involved with militarily only to return power to the people and not try to enforce our will upon them. And by the way, we see the difference between the US allies and, let's say Russia's allies, in the fact that we often have disagreements with our supposed friends because we think of them as equals and not pawns.

Come to think of it, has Russia ever given up a country without having to either lose it militarily or simply not being able to afford it any longer? I'm having a hard time thinking of an example.

Bottom line, that assurance does carry a lot of weight as it has been proven now time and time and time and time and time..... again.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
Is it? Since we went on our Imperialistic phase at the turn of the 20th century, we've since returned control of the Philippines, Panama, France, Germany, Italy( you know what, let's just go with all of Western Europe shall we?), Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan, South Korea, there's much Eastern Europe after the fall of the Wall so that's about what... another ten countries there, I could probably name fifty countries if you push me where we've been involved with militarily only to return power to the people and not try to enforce our will upon them. And by the way, we see the difference between the US allies and, let's say Russia's allies, in the fact that we often have disagreements with our supposed friends because we think of them as equals and not pawns.

Come to think of it, has Russia ever given up a country without having to either lose it militarily or simply not being able to afford it any longer? I'm having a hard time thinking of an example.

Bottom line, that assurance does carry a lot of weight as it has been proven now time and time and time and time and time..... again.
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Wait a minute, we haven't given back New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California. (well, I suppose they're getting California back, lol) and though pointed out so many times, imperialism isn't limited to real estate control. If you think that through the IMF and other policy impositions that the US doesn't wield influence and control around the world, then there's some more naivety.
 
flogger said:
So you have in fact no evidence whatsoever that the US either provoked or materially assisted the Maidan protesters in any way. Fair enough



Yes capitulation behind a smokescreen of faux anger is probably the only option left to you now :cool:
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Oh no, no capitulation, I'll just be continuing the cause with others who are less offending of my sensibilities and who seem more interested in equity than yourself, like the other gentlemen Hamster Buddha that I've been debating. :2wave:
 
Montecresto said:
Oh no, no capitulation, I'll just be continuing the cause with others who are less offending of my sensibilities and who seem more interested in equity than yourself, like the other gentlemen Hamster Buddha that I've been debating. :2wave:
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All I can say to that is perhaps you shouldn't be presenting your subjective assertions as fact then getting p*ssed when somebody calls you out on them.

I'm happy to debate anyone who's truly interested in doing so but 'flag wavers' and 'preachers' I can do without :roll:
 
flogger said:
All I can say to that is perhaps you shouldn't be presenting your subjective assertions as fact then getting p*ssed when somebody calls you out on them.

I'm happy to debate anyone who's truly interested in doing so but 'flag wavers' and 'preachers' I can do without :roll:
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You've demonstrated an inability to debate, and flag wavers, laugh out loud, seriously, dude look in the mirror. No thank you but serious you aren't so tuck your shirt back in and use your notes for tp.
 
Montecresto said:
You've demonstrated an inability to debate, and flag wavers, laugh out loud, seriously, dude look in the mirror. No thank you but serious you aren't so tuck your shirt back in and use your notes for tp.
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Based on the merit of our respective inputs here I'm more than happy to let truly objective posters work out for themselves to which of us this applies :roll:
 
The ceasefire will hold if Putin orders his people to stand down.

The question is whether he is truly satisfied with Donbas remaining a part of Ukraine, even with cultural/political/economic autonomy.
 
Sietske22 said:
The ceasefire will hold if Putin orders his people to stand down.
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Thats not in the game plan

The question is whether he is truly satisfied with Donbas remaining a part of Ukraine, even with cultural/political/economic autonomy
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I'm sure he couldn't care less about the autonomy of Donbas. Its the ongoing political destabilisation of Ukraine as a whole that he requires. Its a Ukraine thats at peace and with the political will to make decisions against the Kremlins wishes thats the last thing he wants. It might think about joining the EU or worse still NATO (after this who could blame them) and that can never be allowed to happen
 
flogger said:
Thats not in the game plan

I'm sure he couldn't care less about the autonomy of Donbas. Its the ongoing political destabilisation of Ukraine as a whole that he requires. Its a Ukraine thats at peace and with the political will to make decisions against the Kremlins wishes thats the last thing he wants. It might think about joining the EU or worse still NATO (after this who could blame them) and that can never be allowed to happen
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You are likely right.

Putin is as likely to allow Ukraine to join the EU or NATO, as the US was to allowing Soviet nuclear weapons in Cuba.

This is Russia's "Monroe Doctrine" and Ukraine is the red line.
 
MildSteel said:
Russia has it's BS propaganda, the U.S. has it's BS propaganda. There is nothing new about that.
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According to every freedom index on the planet the US has a free press; whereas, Russia does not.
 
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face said:
Here you are comrade, here are just 100 of their top ten lies:

Russia's Top 100 Lies About Ukraine

Only fascist Muscovite members of Putin's cult of personality put a single bit of stock into a single word printed by the Kremlin's ministry of propaganda IE Russia Today.
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My favourite was the unbelievable BS the Kremlin generated around the MH 17 shootdown, it went well into 9/11 truther levels of lunacy. Like 9/11 though there were still nutjob western conspiracists desperate to indulge every improbable facet of it
 
Montecresto said:
Sorry, it is legal to take prisoners of war.
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It is indeed legal to capture prisoners of war. She was captured in Ukraine in full military uniform and interrogated as a POW. According to Article 12 of the Geneva Conventions regarding Prisoners of War...

Prisoners of war may only be transferred by the Detaining Power to a Power which is a party to the Convention and after the Detaining Power has satisfied itself of the willingness and ability of such transferee Power to apply the Convention. When prisoners of war are transferred under such circumstances, responsibility for the application of the Convention rests on the Power accepting them while they are in its custody.
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In other words, Lieutenant Savchenko did not lose her POW status when transferred to Russia. As a legal POW, Ms. Savchenko must be released in accordance with the "all for all" prisoner exchange agreed to at Minsk II.

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Captured POW Lieutenant Nadia Savchenko... shackled and in military uniform being interrogated by rebels in Luhansk, Ukraine

Montecresto said:
Having signed M-2 the Russians have five days to deliver her to Ukraine, and need to do so.
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Russia is already trying to back out of its commitment...

Russia: No promises to release Ukraine pilot Savchenko

BBC
13 February 2015

Russia says it has made no promises to free Ukrainian military pilot Nadia Savchenko, captured in June, despite claims following the Minsk peace deal. Emerging from peace talks on Thursday, Ukraine's president Petro Poroshenko said he had been told Ms Savchenko would be freed. Mr. Poroshenko said he had pressed Russia's Vladimir Putin on the matter and had been told she would be freed "shortly".

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said the case would be settled in court. But the Kremlin's spokesman said that no assurances had been given. "The Ukrainian side raised the issue about Savchenko at the summit," Mr Peskov was quoted as saying. "An investigation against Savchenko is under way and the court will decide on the extent of her guilt or innocence."
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face said:
Here you are comrade, here are just 100 of their top ten lies:

Russia's Top 100 Lies About Ukraine

Only fascist Muscovite members of Putin's cult of personality put a single bit of stock into a single word printed by the Kremlin's ministry of propaganda IE Russia Today.
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And I'll dismiss your source as you've dismissed ours, next!
 
Sietske22 said:
You are likely right.

Putin is as likely to allow Ukraine to join the EU or NATO, as the US was to allowing Soviet nuclear weapons in Cuba.

This is Russia's "Monroe Doctrine" and Ukraine is the red line.
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Indeed, and other than the hypocritical, who might blame him.
 
face said:
According to every freedom index on the planet the US has a free press; whereas, Russia does not.
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More patronising bull ****. If you think what you hear isn't being massaged then you'll believe anything, now that was funny.

Massive corporations dominate the U.S. media landscape. Through a history of mergers and acquisitions, these companies have concentrated their control over what we see, hear and read. In many cases, these companies control everything from initial production to final distribution. In the interactive charts below we reveal who owns what.

http://www.freepress.net/ownership/chart

And of course these oligarchs have their interests and agenda.
 
Simpleχity;1064312052 said:
It is indeed legal to capture prisoners of war. She was captured in Ukraine in full military uniform and interrogated as a POW. According to Article 12 of the Geneva Conventions regarding Prisoners of War...



In other words, Lieutenant Savchenko did not lose her POW status when transferred to Russia. As a legal POW, Ms. Savchenko must be released in accordance with the "all for all" prisoner exchange agreed to at Minsk II.

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Captured POW Lieutenant Nadia Savchenko... shackled and in military uniform being interrogated by rebels in Luhansk, Ukraine


Russia is already trying to back out of its commitment...

Russia: No promises to release Ukraine pilot Savchenko
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I'm sorry, do not be pointing to the geneva convention unless you intend to address the three fingers pointing back, hear? Otherwise, I already said, having agreed to release her, they need to do that. But I'll need to see what their response is to this. I realise that you believe there is only a Western side to every story, which makes true debate with you difficult.
 
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Montecresto said:
Indeed, and other than the hypocritical, who might blame him.
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Russia has every right to use political and economic measures to protect Russia's sphere of influence.

Military invasions? They have no such right.

Ukraine aligning with the EU or even joining the EU, is not a military threat to Russia.
 
Montecresto said:
Wait a minute, we haven't given back New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California. (well, I suppose they're getting California back, lol) and though pointed out so many times, imperialism isn't limited to real estate control. If you think that through the IMF and other policy impositions that the US doesn't wield influence and control around the world, then there's some more naivety.
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Last time I checked, the secessionist movement was on the other side of the Southern Half of the US, so not really sure why naming those states relevant to this discussion (incidentally, who'd want to join Mexico at this point). Besides that the IMF at this point is no more our pawn than the EU's or anyone else's. I can see where you'd think of it as such as most of the money being moved is US Dollars, but most of the work they do is financial assistance to this country or that.
 
Montecresto said:
And I'll dismiss your source as you've dismissed ours, next!
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What source did I dismiss? RT? Yes because RT are proven liars, they are nothing but a state owned propaganda mill for the Kremlin if you disagree provide one single solitary RT article critical of Putin, I'll be waiting with baited breath.
 
face said:
What source did I dismiss? RT? Yes because RT are proven liars, they are nothing but a state owned propaganda mill for the Kremlin if you disagree provide one single solitary RT article critical of Putin, I'll be waiting with baited breath.
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Criticisizing Putin is considered a terrorist act like the Kremlin.
 
Montecresto said:
More patronising bull ****. If you think what you hear isn't being massaged then you'll believe anything, now that was funny.

Massive corporations dominate the U.S. media landscape.
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Between print media, television, and radio there are innumerable owners, ownership of the media is decentralized in the US unlike in Russia where it is centralized by the state. Hell the US even allows the broadcast of fascist RT propaganda in this country; whereas, US news channels are banned in Russia, so spare me your laughable nonsense.


Through a history of mergers and acquisitions, these companies have concentrated their control over what we see, hear and read. In many cases, these companies control everything from initial production to final distribution. In the interactive charts below we reveal who owns what.

Who Owns the Media? | Free Press

And of course these oligarchs have their interests and agenda.
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Notice that this guy has to ignore the entire bulk of my argument because he has no valid rebuttal. I will reiterate, every single solitary freedom index on the planet lists the US press as free; whereas, they list Russia's as not free. In the US we have an entire 24/7 news station and countless talk radio stations seemingly dedicated to criticizing the Obama administration and yet you can not find me one single solitary article from RT critical of Putin, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this stuff out. Hell I'll even allow you to expand your search parameters, provide any article/video from a Russia based news outlet critical of Putin, just one, you won't because you can't because they don't exist because Russia does not have a free press because Putin is an authoritarian little tin pot dictator.
 
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Montecresto said:
But I'll need to see what their response is to this.
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I already posted their immediate response. Why do you ignore it?

Russia: No promises to release Ukraine pilot Savchenko

Montecresto said:
I realise that you believe there is only a Western side to every story, which makes true debate with you difficult.
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There is no "Western" side to the Geneva Conventions. Both Russia and Ukraine are signatories.

There is nothing ambiguous here. Lieutenant Savchenko was captured by enemy forces on the battlefield in military uniform. She is clearly a Prisoner of War (POW).
Article 4

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
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The Geneva Convention clearly says that all POW's must be released "without delay" following the cessation of active hostilities (15 February 2015). In addition, the Minsk II Agreement (signed by Russia) clearly says an "all for all" exchange.

Article 118

Prisoners of war shall be released and repatriated without delay after the cessation of active hostilities.
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Already the rebels are saying they will keep on shelling:

Ukraine Cease-Fire Goes Into Effect, but Rebel Leader in Key Town Repudiates Accord

New York Times
February 14, 2015

A fragile, European-brokered ceasefire deal for Ukraine appeared at risk of unraveling, at least in part, when a rebel leader announced Saturday night that he would not be bound by the accord on a central battlefield of the war.

Although the Ukrainian president and the pro-Russian rebel leader both announced that the cease-fire had gone into effect, the separatist leader said it did not apply to Debaltseve, where thousands of Ukrainian troops have been under siege and might be surrounded. The rebel leader, Aleksandr Zakharchenko said the town, a critical railway hub, had not been mentioned specifically in the agreement.
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WTF? Zakharchenko signed the Minsk II Agreement himself...

The document was signed by:

Swiss diplomat and OSCE representative Heidi Tagliavini
Former president of Ukraine and Ukrainian representative Leonid Kuchma
Russian Ambassador to Ukraine and Russian representative Mikhail Zurabov
DPR and LPR leaders Alexander Zakharchenko and Igor Plotnitsky
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