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Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

Cryptic said:
Unless, Russia's goal is not the siezure of individual oblasts, but bringing Ukriane as a nation back into the Russian sphere as a protectorate. To do this, Russia would not need to ethnically cleanse the other oblasts. Rather, armed groups infiltrate from Donbass into Odessa, Kharkiv and Dnipropetrovsk where they find some degrees of local support. The Ukrainian government gradually loses control over those areas. As more and more areas are lost, a Russian led counter coup occurs in Kiev.

The new Russian installed government then "asks" to join Russia as a federal state. The far western oblasts are not garrisoned (too much trouble). Instead, they are left to "whither on the vine". Meanwhile, Putin sets his sights on Belarus as the next country to federalize.
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It basically boils down to this. The Ukraine makes a public committment to not join the EU or NATO at any future date or Russia will continue this campaign until it does. This means of course the Ukrainians essentially signing away its right to self determination, a condition which no government would accept lightly. Given that the west appears do be doing squat and would most rather this whole situation just went away Putin can afford to gamble.

We may all live to regret this one day as there are certain analogies with the ineffectuality of the old League of Nations in the 1930s :(
 
Cryptic said:
Vacated homes of pro Russians are at little risk of siezure. Rather, it is the pro Ukrainians who will be "de-housed". As for Russian cossacks and "cossacks" wanting to settle in the Donbass, if given a free home, and other oncentives (small business loans, ability to purchase famland cheaply) etc, I think there will be more than a few such settlers.
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"De-housed" - probably this is term from Balkans, maybe from Kosovo where Albanians "de-housed" thousands of people of Serbian nationality? For now we see people leaving Donbass, not coming in. Look at Crimea. How many people were "de-housed" there? How many "cossacks" settled in Crimea? Once again I should admit - your imaginations about the discussed things are on the level of fairy-tales. Cossacks, bears, balalaykas...
 
Cryptic said:
Ukriane needs to win big and fast, or they are going to be made into a Russian protectorate by creeping destabilization. I hate to admit it, but Putin's is a master game player. He correctly predicted that the west would not intervene, and also correctly predicted that the Ukrainian military wont be able to stop even an invasion by proxy, let alone a full scale effort.
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I don't think it is militarily doable without outside assistance. Putin is no master game player. The cards are highly stacked in his favor. Proximity and logistics. A vastly superior military force. Pro-Russian moles within the Ukrainian military. A Ukrainian military decimated by Yanukovych. Ukrainian military arms date to the Soviet era. A porous border. Due to Russian Manpad missiles and MH-17, Ukrainian air assets do not play a part in hostilities. Ukraine is almost broke. An ambivalent and reluctant EU. Putin is not adverse to breaking treaties. Russia has the nuclear and energy blackmail cards. The state controls Russian media so no dissent at home.

Almost anyone with even half-a brain could have accomplished this with the same favorable conditions that Putin enjoys.
 
MrFirst said:
As far as I undertsand, the people of Donbass disagree with you.
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As far as I understand your video proves precisely jack and ****, Donetsk and Luhansk have majority ethnic Ukrainian population:


According to the (2001 census), the ethnic makeup of Crimea's population consists of the following self-reported groups: Russians:1.18 million (58.3%), Ukrainians: 492,200 (24.3%), Crimean Tatars: 243,400 (12.0%), Belarusians: 29,200 (1.4%), other Tatars: 11,000 (0.5%), Armenians: 8,7000 (0.4%).[4]

Demographics of Crimea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
At the 2001 Ukrainian National Census, the ethnic groups within the Donetsk Oblast were: Ukrainians – 2,744,100 (56.9%), Russians – 1,844,400 (38.2%), Pontic Greeks – 77,500 (1.6%), Belarusians – 44,500 (0.9%), others (2.3%).[9]

Donetsk Oblast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The population is largely Russian-speaking, although ethnic Ukrainians constitute a majority (58.0%). Among the minorities are native Russians (39.1%), Belarusians (0.8%), and others (1.4%).

Luhansk Oblast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If you believe that 97% of the Crimea which only has a 60% ethnic Russian population and 90% of Donetsk which actually has an ethnic Ukrainian majority voted for annexation by Russia then I have a great deal for you on a bridge I own in Brooklyn. :roll:

Mass murdering ethnic cleansing inhuman Russian terrorist pigs do nothing to change this fact, turning Donetsk and Luhansk into armed camps run by kidnapping, murder, rape, and torture does not a legitimate referendum make.




“We are talking of a reign of fear, if not of terror” in the pockets of territory around Donetsk and Luhansk controlled by armed separatists and now experiencing a state of total lawlessness, Mr. Magazzeni said, citing cases of people shot at checkpoints for no reason and members of armed groups who were summarily shot because they no longer wanted to fight.

“The escalation in criminal activity resulting in human rights abuses is no longer limited to targeting journalists, elected representatives, local politicians, civil servants and civil society activists,” the report stated. “Abductions, detentions, acts of ill-treatment and torture, and killings by armed groups are now affecting the broader population of the two eastern regions.”

They further report that pogroms in the Crimea are responsible for ethnic cleansing in the Crimea:

The United Nations refugee agency has reported that more than 34,000 Ukrainians have been displaced. Most were from Crimea, where people who speak Ukrainian or do not want to change their nationality to Russian face discrimination and intimidation, Mr. Magazzeni said.

“They are mostly concerned about security: people report staying in cellars to keep away from the fighting, facing harassment at checkpoints and fearing the increasingly common abductions, threats and extortion,” the monitors reported.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/19/w...tails-casualties-in-eastern-ukraine.html?_r=0
 
Montecresto said:
No, it decidedly is NOT!
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Question to you, Monte:

Why can Putin arm his proxies in order to illegally attack Ukraine, but we can't send weapons to the Ukranians so they can defend themselves from Russian aggression?
 
Roadvirus said:
Question to you, Monte:

Why can Putin arm his proxies in order to illegally attack Ukraine, but we can't send weapons to the Ukranians so they can defend themselves from Russian aggression?
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I've responded to that inquiry on multiple occasions. The US is backing a regime in Kiev that Russia does not recognise as legitimate. An angry mob consisting of a fraction of the population of Ukraine converged at Maiden Square in the Capitol and began burning federal buildings, and demanding the ouster of president Yanukovych, and fired upon his motorcade as he fled for his life. That is not the democratic model, and neither you or any other poster at DP that supports it, would support it in the UK, Germany, Canada, the US, etc.
 
face said:
Mass murdering ethnic cleansing inhuman Russian terrorist pigs do nothing to change this fact, turning Donetsk and Luhansk into armed camps run by kidnapping, murder, rape, and torture does not a legitimate referendum make.
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Keep your fairy tales for westerners. They can believe at this BS.
 
MrFirst said:
Keep your fairy tales for westerners. They can believe at this BS.
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Keep your Kremlin propaganda for fascist members of Dear Leader Putin's cult of personality, my undeniable facts come from the UN Human Rights Investigation in the Russian atrocities in the Ukraine.
 
Simpleχity;1064330255 said:
Right on cue...

Russia rejects Ukraine UN peacekeeper plan



The heights of hypocrisy ... do as I say, not as I do...

Ukraine rebels disavow ceasefire at encircled town
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The heights of hypocrisy? Whose heights, Simlpex?

EU said Poroshenko the same: first do what you have signed for.

This proposal has met with great skepticism in Brussels. The EU's foreign policy chief, Federica Mogherini, let it be known that the immediate priority was implementing the agreements reached in Minsk last week. There, Ukraine, Russia, Germany and France had agreed that the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) would continue to monitor the situation in Ukraine and to report its findings. Ukraine, Russia, EU countries and the US are represented in the OSCE. Around 450 unarmed members of the supranational organization have been observing developments in Crimea and in eastern Ukraine since March 2014.

EU police as peacekeepers in Ukraine? | Europe | DW.DE | 19.02.2015
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face said:
Keep your Kremlin propaganda for fascist members of Dear Leader Putin's cult of personality, my undeniable facts come from the UN Human Rights Investigation in the Russian atrocities in the Ukraine.
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Undeniable facts? This article was posted here for hundreds of times, your friend Simplex tried hard. It's dated by June 18, 2014. Quite an old info, considering UN reported more than 5.000 people were killed since then.

Ethnic cleansings are impossible in Donbass because Russians and Ukrainians consist one mixed population there.
 
Drunk Ukrainian soldiers flooded the city Artemovsk:

ARTEMIVSK, Ukraine — As violence continued to plague eastern Ukraine on Thursday, demoralized Ukrainian soldiers straggled into the town of Artemivsk, griping about incompetent leadership and recounting desperate conditions and gruesome killing as they beat a haphazard retreat from the strategic town of Debaltseve.

Gunshots rang out on the central square, as many soldiers began drinking heavily. One soldier stood, swaying, on the sidewalk mumbling to himself. Others, who had escaped from Debaltseve after weeks of shelling, were seizing taxicabs without payment. It was not clear that all of them had been given places to sleep, and one group stood silently, shivering on a street outside the Hotel Ukraine.

At Biblios, an upscale restaurant, soldiers tramped about the dining room, ordering brandy that they could not afford, then firing shots into the ceiling as the paying guests quietly fled the premises.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/20/w...y-to-impose-ukraine-cease-fire.html?ref=world
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Montecresto said:
I've responded to that inquiry on multiple occasions. The US is backing a regime in Kiev that Russia does not recognise as legitimate. An angry mob consisting of a fraction of the population of Ukraine converged at Maiden Square in the Capitol and began burning federal buildings, and demanding the ouster of president Yanukovych, and fired upon his motorcade as he fled for his life. That is not the democratic model, and neither you or any other poster at DP that supports it, would support it in the UK, Germany, Canada, the US, etc.
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Once again please quantify and identify this alleged backing the US gave to the Maidan protesters ? How was this 'support' provided ? Was it arms , money, food parcels, first aid or perhaps applause and flag waving ? I guess I like many here will continue to wait with baited breath for proof that your cherished conspiracy theory exists anywhere but within your own head
 
flogger said:
Once again please quantify and identify this alleged backing the US gave to the Maiden protesters ? How was this 'support' provided ? Was it arms , money, food parcels, first aid or perhaps applause and flag waving ? I guess I like many here will continue to wait with baited breath for proof that your cherished conspiracy theory exists anywhere but within your own head
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Part of Russian disinformation relies on half truths and the way they are presented. If one say that Amnesty International fed the demonstrators soup to warm them up the impact is quite different from saying the US incited mobs in Kiev and fostered Maiden unrest.

In many cases here and in other fora I am not sure, whether the foristi are naively repeating or intentionally distorting information.
 
flogger said:
Once again please quantify and identify this alleged backing the US gave to the Maidan protesters ? How was this 'support' provided ? Was it arms , money, food parcels, first aid or perhaps applause and flag waving ? I guess I like many here will continue to wait with baited breath for proof that your cherished conspiracy theory exists anywhere but within your own head
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Besides the Nuland's behind the scenes negotiations and support for Yanukovych's replacement, yes, a lot of applause and flag waving for activities that no Westerner would consider democratic, or an acceptable means of replacing a president in their country. Tell me hypocrite. Would you be applauding, and waving the flag if the same situation were to unfold in London, and Cameron was driven from his office on Downing Street? No, of course you would not!!!!


Another Research & Branding Group survey (conducted from 23 to 27 December) showed that 45% of Ukrainians supported Euromaidan, while 50% did not.[128] 43% Of those polled thought that Euromaidan's consequences "sooner could be negative", while 31% of the respondents thought the opposite; 17% believed that Euromaidan would bring no negative consequences.[128]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan
 
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Montecresto said:
Besides the Nuland's behind the scenes negotiations and support for Yanukovych's replacement, yes, a lot of applause and flag waving for activities that no Westerner would consider democratic, or an acceptable means of replacing a president in their country. Tell me hypocrite. Would you be applauding, and waving the flag if the same situation were to unfold in London, and Cameron was driven from his office on Downing Street? No, of course you would not!!!!
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Anyone who does not know about the support the U.S. gave to the protestors is very uninformed. We had the Assistant Secretary of State, the Ambassador, and U.S. senators out there supporting the protestors.
 
MildSteel said:
Anyone who does not know about the support the U.S. gave to the protestors is very uninformed. We had the Assistant Secretary of State, the Ambassador, and U.S. senators out there supporting the protestors.
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Oh, these guys are most certainly not uninformed. Their dishonesty in this is quite deliberate!
 
Montecresto said:
Oh, these guys are most certainly not uninformed. Their dishonesty in this is quite deliberate!
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I agree. They will outright lie, twist your words and do anything. That's why at some point when discussing with certain people, I stop.
 
Simpleχity;1064334241 said:
An outright fabrication. Every nation - including Russia and even Viktor Yanukovych) recognized the validity of the 2014 Ukraine Presidential Election.

Russia also recognized the 2014 Ukraine Parliamentary elections...

Russia to Recognize Ukraine Election Results, Says Lavrov
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Nice try, but we were referring to the regime that was installed with Western support, that prompted Russia's response and emergency action in Crimea. I know that you know this but seem to think being coy is cute.

An interim government was quickly announced, leading Yanukovych to come out of hiding, and in a press conference, declare that he would not be relinquishing his claim to the presidency—calling the actions to appoint a new government a coup—and that he had fled Kiev when he received threats to his life.

Yanukovych’s statements provided Russia with a rationale for action. “When we see this we understand what worries the citizens of Ukraine, both Russian and Ukrainian, and the Russian-speaking population in the eastern and southern regions of Ukraine. It is this uncontrolled crime that worries them,” Russian President Vladimir Putin said in an unscripted conversation with press on March 3rd. “Therefore, if we see such uncontrolled crime spreading to the eastern regions of the country, and if the people ask us for help, while we already have the official request from the legitimate President, we retain the right to use all available means to protect those people. We believe this would be absolutely legitimate.”

http://www.diplomaticourier.com/new...aw-in-crimea-pushing-the-u-s-and-russia-apart
 
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MrFirst said:
Drunk Ukrainian soldiers flooded the city Artemovsk:
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I am not surprised. They probably don't feel like a part of the country they are trying to defend. There was no parade for coming home, no women lining the streets. Sometimes it is hard to come home as a soldier.
 
Montecresto said:
Besides the Nuland's behind the scenes negotiations and support for Yanukovych's replacement, yes, a lot of applause and flag waving for activities that no Westerner would consider democratic, or an acceptable means of replacing a president in their country. Tell me hypocrite. Would you be applauding, and waving the flag if the same situation were to unfold in London, and Cameron was driven from his office on Downing Street? No, of course you would not!!!!
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So again no actual evidence that the protesters were materially assisted in any tangible way by the US whatsoever so you must have imagined it all then

Another Research & Branding Group survey (conducted from 23 to 27 December) showed that 45% of Ukrainians supported Euromaidan, while 50% did not.[128] 43% Of those polled thought that Euromaidan's consequences "sooner could be negative", while 31% of the respondents thought the opposite; 17% believed that Euromaidan would bring no negative consequences.
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And the two internationally monitored elections last year ? Or did this Nuland just pay all them to vote against your wishes
 
Simpleχity;1064334650 said:
I quoted you directly...



As I demonstrated with links, your above statement is factually incorrect. Nice try to backpedal though.
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Yes, you copy/pasted my post and then mischaracterised it. That's hardly a direct quote. And it's not back peddling for me to point out that your sig line slanderous accusation of Russia was a response to a Western backed government that Russia didn't recognise as legitimate, as well as a reasonable threat to Russian assets in Crimea. And here's the thing, it's not going well for the West right now in that.
 
flogger said:
So again no actual evidence that the protesters were materially assisted in any tangible way by the US whatsoever so you must have imagined it all then



And the two internationally monitored elections last year ? Or did this Nuland just pay all them to vote against your wishes
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Move the goal post, "materially"! So, sorry you are having issues with Russian successes on this. You may go back to posts during the time that Nuland and Co. were interfering in Kiev, and you'll see that those of us that were supporting the Russian response at the time, were doing so because of the illegitimacy of the Western backed government. It was only natural that Putin do what he did and I'm sorry that that rubs you a rash.
 
Montecresto said:
Move the goal post, "materially"!
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OK then how did the US back the protesters in ANY way whatsoever ? How did it get them to face down Yanukovyches guns unarmed and how often do I need to keep asking this question ?

So, sorry you are having issues with Russian successes on this.
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As should any free thinking individual on earth !

You may go back to posts during the time that Nuland and Co. were interfering in Kiev, and you'll see that those of us that were supporting the Russian response at the time, were doing so because of the illegitimacy of the Western backed government.
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Nuland and co had nothing to do with the Maidan protesters and nothing to do with the subsequent two elections results last year. I dare you to prove me wrong ?

It was only natural that Putin do what he did and I'm sorry that that rubs you a rash
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Only natural you say !? :shock:

Naked armed aggression is never that, so those sort of comments are simply flaming now frankly
 
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