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Thread: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    No such assurances exist in foreign policy, that's naive.
    Is it? Since we went on our Imperialistic phase at the turn of the 20th century, we've since returned control of the Philippines, Panama, France, Germany, Italy( you know what, let's just go with all of Western Europe shall we?), Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan, South Korea, there's much Eastern Europe after the fall of the Wall so that's about what... another ten countries there, I could probably name fifty countries if you push me where we've been involved with militarily only to return power to the people and not try to enforce our will upon them. And by the way, we see the difference between the US allies and, let's say Russia's allies, in the fact that we often have disagreements with our supposed friends because we think of them as equals and not pawns.

    Come to think of it, has Russia ever given up a country without having to either lose it militarily or simply not being able to afford it any longer? I'm having a hard time thinking of an example.

    Bottom line, that assurance does carry a lot of weight as it has been proven now time and time and time and time and time..... again.

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    Is it? Since we went on our Imperialistic phase at the turn of the 20th century, we've since returned control of the Philippines, Panama, France, Germany, Italy( you know what, let's just go with all of Western Europe shall we?), Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan, South Korea, there's much Eastern Europe after the fall of the Wall so that's about what... another ten countries there, I could probably name fifty countries if you push me where we've been involved with militarily only to return power to the people and not try to enforce our will upon them. And by the way, we see the difference between the US allies and, let's say Russia's allies, in the fact that we often have disagreements with our supposed friends because we think of them as equals and not pawns.

    Come to think of it, has Russia ever given up a country without having to either lose it militarily or simply not being able to afford it any longer? I'm having a hard time thinking of an example.

    Bottom line, that assurance does carry a lot of weight as it has been proven now time and time and time and time and time..... again.
    Wait a minute, we haven't given back New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California. (well, I suppose they're getting California back, lol) and though pointed out so many times, imperialism isn't limited to real estate control. If you think that through the IMF and other policy impositions that the US doesn't wield influence and control around the world, then there's some more naivety.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    So you have in fact no evidence whatsoever that the US either provoked or materially assisted the Maidan protesters in any way. Fair enough



    Yes capitulation behind a smokescreen of faux anger is probably the only option left to you now
    Oh no, no capitulation, I'll just be continuing the cause with others who are less offending of my sensibilities and who seem more interested in equity than yourself, like the other gentlemen Hamster Buddha that I've been debating.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Oh no, no capitulation, I'll just be continuing the cause with others who are less offending of my sensibilities and who seem more interested in equity than yourself, like the other gentlemen Hamster Buddha that I've been debating.
    All I can say to that is perhaps you shouldn't be presenting your subjective assertions as fact then getting p*ssed when somebody calls you out on them.

    I'm happy to debate anyone who's truly interested in doing so but 'flag wavers' and 'preachers' I can do without

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    All I can say to that is perhaps you shouldn't be presenting your subjective assertions as fact then getting p*ssed when somebody calls you out on them.

    I'm happy to debate anyone who's truly interested in doing so but 'flag wavers' and 'preachers' I can do without
    You've demonstrated an inability to debate, and flag wavers, laugh out loud, seriously, dude look in the mirror. No thank you but serious you aren't so tuck your shirt back in and use your notes for tp.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    You've demonstrated an inability to debate, and flag wavers, laugh out loud, seriously, dude look in the mirror. No thank you but serious you aren't so tuck your shirt back in and use your notes for tp.
    Based on the merit of our respective inputs here I'm more than happy to let truly objective posters work out for themselves to which of us this applies

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    The ceasefire will hold if Putin orders his people to stand down.

    The question is whether he is truly satisfied with Donbas remaining a part of Ukraine, even with cultural/political/economic autonomy.

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Sietske22 View Post
    The ceasefire will hold if Putin orders his people to stand down.
    Thats not in the game plan

    The question is whether he is truly satisfied with Donbas remaining a part of Ukraine, even with cultural/political/economic autonomy
    I'm sure he couldn't care less about the autonomy of Donbas. Its the ongoing political destabilisation of Ukraine as a whole that he requires. Its a Ukraine thats at peace and with the political will to make decisions against the Kremlins wishes thats the last thing he wants. It might think about joining the EU or worse still NATO (after this who could blame them) and that can never be allowed to happen

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Thats not in the game plan

    I'm sure he couldn't care less about the autonomy of Donbas. Its the ongoing political destabilisation of Ukraine as a whole that he requires. Its a Ukraine thats at peace and with the political will to make decisions against the Kremlins wishes thats the last thing he wants. It might think about joining the EU or worse still NATO (after this who could blame them) and that can never be allowed to happen
    You are likely right.

    Putin is as likely to allow Ukraine to join the EU or NATO, as the US was to allowing Soviet nuclear weapons in Cuba.

    This is Russia's "Monroe Doctrine" and Ukraine is the red line.

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Russia has it's BS propaganda, the U.S. has it's BS propaganda. There is nothing new about that.
    According to every freedom index on the planet the US has a free press; whereas, Russia does not.

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