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Thread: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    And how does that happen when he's jailed the opposition leaders ?



    You might if you had no other option. Lets not forget that this guy was so corrupt that even members of his own cabinet abandoned him in the end and do you know what ? The US didn't pay them to either ! He then skipped the country and is under the protection of Moscow complete with the billions in Ukrainian state funds he sequestered on his departure. Doubtless he has found many kindred spirits in his new home



    At least I have some
    Yes, you have some, and they're blatantly situational.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Yes, you have some, and they're blatantly situational.
    I'm not a petty partisan bigot which I can pride myself on. I'll give the US a kicking with the best of them when its warranted, but not this time

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I could use your rhetoric tool and say that your post is stupid but it would be counterproductive. Instead I will say that what you have ignored is this



    and these statements by the Assistant Secretary of State pictured above.

    What is really going on in Ukraine is a struggle between the United States and Russia over influence in Europe. As such BOTH THE UNITED STATES AND RUSSIA HAVE THERE NOSES STUCK INTO THE AFFAIRS OF UKRAINE. Therefore it is certain that the U.S. will indeed try to influence how this plays out in the end, because how it plays out in the end will determine the amount of influence that Russia has in the world relative to the U.S.
    You make excellent points really, and nothing that in principle I disagree with. The problem boils down to the fact that when the US gets involved, you can have reasonable assurances that when the dust is settled, they'll leave the country to their own devices and don't try and bully them into falling into line. In fact, that's probably one of our greatest weaknesses that was demonstrated in Iraq for example. As much as people, probably like yourself, would love to argue that we did it "just for the oil" the moment we were able we hauled ass out of there. And incidentally, the majority of Iraqi oil goes to places like China than it does the US. With Russia however, they have a long track record of trying to impose their will on their neighbors that dates back to the Soviet Union. And as much as I'd love to say those times are long past, we know that's not the case from the way they went into Georgia, Annexed the Crimea and Sevastopol, and then continue to support and arm the rebels in Ukraine.

    The US is going to make mistakes from time to time, but I'd argue to the end of the time that at least when we go in, we're doing it for not just our interests, but of everyone involved, including the enemy. I can't say the same for the Ex-KGB running the Kremlin, and I do believe history backs me up.

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    I'm not a petty partisan bigot which I can pride myself on. I'll give the US a kicking with the best of them when its warranted, but not this time
    That's not what I am referring to. I'm referring to the notion that an angry mob of a few hundred thousand, taking it upon themselves to crash the maiden square, burn out federal buildings and drive the president that was elected by the entire country, from his office under fire, and your hypocritical support of such behavior. That is your situational ethics, and the reason I dismiss your pov.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    You make excellent points really, and nothing that in principle I disagree with. The problem boils down to the fact that when the US gets involved, you can have reasonable assurances that when the dust is settled, they'll leave the country to their own devices and don't try and bully them into falling into line. In fact, that's probably one of our greatest weaknesses that was demonstrated in Iraq for example. As much as people, probably like yourself, would love to argue that we did it "just for the oil" the moment we were able we hauled ass out of there. And incidentally, the majority of Iraqi oil goes to places like China than it does the US. With Russia however, they have a long track record of trying to impose their will on their neighbors that dates back to the Soviet Union. And as much as I'd love to say those times are long past, we know that's not the case from the way they went into Georgia, Annexed the Crimea and Sevastopol, and then continue to support and arm the rebels in Ukraine.

    The US is going to make mistakes from time to time, but I'd argue to the end of the time that at least when we go in, we're doing it for not just our interests, but of everyone involved, including the enemy. I can't say the same for the Ex-KGB running the Kremlin, and I do believe history backs me up.
    No such assurances exist in foreign policy, that's naive.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    That's not what I am referring to. I'm referring to the notion that an angry mob of a few hundred thousand, taking it upon themselves to crash the maiden square, burn out federal buildings and drive the president that was elected by the entire country, from his office under fire, and your hypocritical support of such behavior. That is your situational ethics, and the reason I dismiss your pov.
    I'd find your position a good deal more credible if you were less concerned with how it happened and more concerned with why and I have provided you with more than enough info on that. Also need I remind you that there have been two internationally monitored elections in Ukraine since all this took place. In both elections (which were inclusive of over 90% of Ukraines electorate) Poroshenko won

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    I'd find your position a good deal more credible if you were less concerned with how it happened and more concerned with why and I have provided you with more than enough info on that. Also need I remind you that there have been two internationally monitored elections in Ukraine since all this took place. In both elections (which were inclusive of over 90% of Ukraines electorate) Poroshenko won
    All of which ignores the riotous actions at MS that I've noted several times, that you support because of your hypocritical, ends justifies the means, bull****. I'd like to see what sliver of ground you'd be standing on were the same thing to happen in Scotland with Russian support.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    All of which ignores the riotous actions at MS that I've noted several times, that you support because of your hypocritical, ends justifies the means, bull****. .
    What hypocrisy is it to which you refer, because I've qualified my stance at every turn using hard fact rather than bigotry and subjective assertion ?

    I'd like to see what sliver of ground you'd be standing on were the same thing to happen in Scotland with Russian support
    As ever please quantify the nature of this support the US provided to the Maidan protesters, or put more plainly what is it the US is supposed to have done here that materially assisted them in any way ?

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    What hypocrisy is it to which you refer, because I've qualified my stance at every turn using hard fact rather than bigotry and subjective assertion ?



    As ever please quantify the nature of this support the US provided to the Maidan protesters, or put more plainly what is it the US is supposed to have done here that assisted them in any way ?
    Are you now telling me that you deny the fact that the US, from Obama to Kerry to Powers to Nuland and more did not support and sympathise with the protesters in Maiden Square, Jesus Christ my man, I'm fed up with your dishonesty, I deliberately will not be responding to anything else you have to say on this subject, it's no debate but a reckless waste of my time, auf widersehen!!!!!!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Are you now telling me that you deny the fact that the US, from Obama to Kerry to Powers to Nuland and more did not support and sympathise with the protesters in Maiden Square, Jesus Christ my man, I'm fed up with your dishonesty
    So you have in fact no evidence whatsoever that the US either provoked or materially assisted the Maidan protesters in any way. Fair enough

    I deliberately will not be responding to anything else you have to say on this subject, it's no debate but a reckless waste of my time, auf widersehen!!!!!!
    Yes capitulation behind a smokescreen of faux anger is probably the only option left to you now

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