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Thread: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

  1. #201
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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Unless, Russia's goal is not the siezure of individual oblasts, but bringing Ukriane as a nation back into the Russian sphere as a protectorate. To do this, Russia would not need to ethnically cleanse the other oblasts. Rather, armed groups infiltrate from Donbass into Odessa, Kharkiv and Dnipropetrovsk where they find some degrees of local support. The Ukrainian government gradually loses control over those areas. As more and more areas are lost, a Russian led counter coup occurs in Kiev.

    The new Russian installed government then "asks" to join Russia as a federal state. The far western oblasts are not garrisoned (too much trouble). Instead, they are left to "whither on the vine". Meanwhile, Putin sets his sights on Belarus as the next country to federalize.
    It basically boils down to this. The Ukraine makes a public committment to not join the EU or NATO at any future date or Russia will continue this campaign until it does. This means of course the Ukrainians essentially signing away its right to self determination, a condition which no government would accept lightly. Given that the west appears do be doing squat and would most rather this whole situation just went away Putin can afford to gamble.

    We may all live to regret this one day as there are certain analogies with the ineffectuality of the old League of Nations in the 1930s

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Vacated homes of pro Russians are at little risk of siezure. Rather, it is the pro Ukrainians who will be "de-housed". As for Russian cossacks and "cossacks" wanting to settle in the Donbass, if given a free home, and other oncentives (small business loans, ability to purchase famland cheaply) etc, I think there will be more than a few such settlers.
    "De-housed" - probably this is term from Balkans, maybe from Kosovo where Albanians "de-housed" thousands of people of Serbian nationality? For now we see people leaving Donbass, not coming in. Look at Crimea. How many people were "de-housed" there? How many "cossacks" settled in Crimea? Once again I should admit - your imaginations about the discussed things are on the level of fairy-tales. Cossacks, bears, balalaykas...

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Ukriane needs to win big and fast, or they are going to be made into a Russian protectorate by creeping destabilization. I hate to admit it, but Putin's is a master game player. He correctly predicted that the west would not intervene, and also correctly predicted that the Ukrainian military wont be able to stop even an invasion by proxy, let alone a full scale effort.
    I don't think it is militarily doable without outside assistance. Putin is no master game player. The cards are highly stacked in his favor. Proximity and logistics. A vastly superior military force. Pro-Russian moles within the Ukrainian military. A Ukrainian military decimated by Yanukovych. Ukrainian military arms date to the Soviet era. A porous border. Due to Russian Manpad missiles and MH-17, Ukrainian air assets do not play a part in hostilities. Ukraine is almost broke. An ambivalent and reluctant EU. Putin is not adverse to breaking treaties. Russia has the nuclear and energy blackmail cards. The state controls Russian media so no dissent at home.

    Almost anyone with even half-a brain could have accomplished this with the same favorable conditions that Putin enjoys.


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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFirst View Post
    As far as I undertsand, the people of Donbass disagree with you.
    As far as I understand your video proves precisely jack and ****, Donetsk and Luhansk have majority ethnic Ukrainian population:


    According to the (2001 census), the ethnic makeup of Crimea's population consists of the following self-reported groups: Russians:1.18 million (58.3%), Ukrainians: 492,200 (24.3%), Crimean Tatars: 243,400 (12.0%), Belarusians: 29,200 (1.4%), other Tatars: 11,000 (0.5%), Armenians: 8,7000 (0.4%).[4]

    Demographics of Crimea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    At the 2001 Ukrainian National Census, the ethnic groups within the Donetsk Oblast were: Ukrainians – 2,744,100 (56.9%), Russians – 1,844,400 (38.2%), Pontic Greeks – 77,500 (1.6%), Belarusians – 44,500 (0.9%), others (2.3%).[9]

    Donetsk Oblast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The population is largely Russian-speaking, although ethnic Ukrainians constitute a majority (58.0%). Among the minorities are native Russians (39.1%), Belarusians (0.8%), and others (1.4%).

    Luhansk Oblast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    If you believe that 97% of the Crimea which only has a 60% ethnic Russian population and 90% of Donetsk which actually has an ethnic Ukrainian majority voted for annexation by Russia then I have a great deal for you on a bridge I own in Brooklyn.

    Mass murdering ethnic cleansing inhuman Russian terrorist pigs do nothing to change this fact, turning Donetsk and Luhansk into armed camps run by kidnapping, murder, rape, and torture does not a legitimate referendum make.




    “We are talking of a reign of fear, if not of terror” in the pockets of territory around Donetsk and Luhansk controlled by armed separatists and now experiencing a state of total lawlessness, Mr. Magazzeni said, citing cases of people shot at checkpoints for no reason and members of armed groups who were summarily shot because they no longer wanted to fight.

    “The escalation in criminal activity resulting in human rights abuses is no longer limited to targeting journalists, elected representatives, local politicians, civil servants and civil society activists,” the report stated. “Abductions, detentions, acts of ill-treatment and torture, and killings by armed groups are now affecting the broader population of the two eastern regions.”


    They further report that pogroms in the Crimea are responsible for ethnic cleansing in the Crimea:

    The United Nations refugee agency has reported that more than 34,000 Ukrainians have been displaced. Most were from Crimea, where people who speak Ukrainian or do not want to change their nationality to Russian face discrimination and intimidation, Mr. Magazzeni said.

    “They are mostly concerned about security: people report staying in cellars to keep away from the fighting, facing harassment at checkpoints and fearing the increasingly common abductions, threats and extortion,” the monitors reported.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/19/wo...aine.html?_r=0

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    No, it decidedly is NOT!
    Question to you, Monte:

    Why can Putin arm his proxies in order to illegally attack Ukraine, but we can't send weapons to the Ukranians so they can defend themselves from Russian aggression?

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadvirus View Post
    Question to you, Monte:

    Why can Putin arm his proxies in order to illegally attack Ukraine, but we can't send weapons to the Ukranians so they can defend themselves from Russian aggression?
    I've responded to that inquiry on multiple occasions. The US is backing a regime in Kiev that Russia does not recognise as legitimate. An angry mob consisting of a fraction of the population of Ukraine converged at Maiden Square in the Capitol and began burning federal buildings, and demanding the ouster of president Yanukovych, and fired upon his motorcade as he fled for his life. That is not the democratic model, and neither you or any other poster at DP that supports it, would support it in the UK, Germany, Canada, the US, etc.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by face, your View Post
    Mass murdering ethnic cleansing inhuman Russian terrorist pigs do nothing to change this fact, turning Donetsk and Luhansk into armed camps run by kidnapping, murder, rape, and torture does not a legitimate referendum make.
    Keep your fairy tales for westerners. They can believe at this BS.

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFirst View Post
    Keep your fairy tales for westerners. They can believe at this BS.
    Keep your Kremlin propaganda for fascist members of Dear Leader Putin's cult of personality, my undeniable facts come from the UN Human Rights Investigation in the Russian atrocities in the Ukraine.

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    Right on cue...

    Russia rejects Ukraine UN peacekeeper plan



    The heights of hypocrisy ... do as I say, not as I do...

    Ukraine rebels disavow ceasefire at encircled town
    The heights of hypocrisy? Whose heights, Simlpex?

    EU said Poroshenko the same: first do what you have signed for.

    This proposal has met with great skepticism in Brussels. The EU's foreign policy chief, Federica Mogherini, let it be known that the immediate priority was implementing the agreements reached in Minsk last week. There, Ukraine, Russia, Germany and France had agreed that the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) would continue to monitor the situation in Ukraine and to report its findings. Ukraine, Russia, EU countries and the US are represented in the OSCE. Around 450 unarmed members of the supranational organization have been observing developments in Crimea and in eastern Ukraine since March 2014.

    EU police as peacekeepers in Ukraine? | Europe | DW.DE | 19.02.2015

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by face, your View Post
    Keep your Kremlin propaganda for fascist members of Dear Leader Putin's cult of personality, my undeniable facts come from the UN Human Rights Investigation in the Russian atrocities in the Ukraine.
    Undeniable facts? This article was posted here for hundreds of times, your friend Simplex tried hard. It's dated by June 18, 2014. Quite an old info, considering UN reported more than 5.000 people were killed since then.

    Ethnic cleansings are impossible in Donbass because Russians and Ukrainians consist one mixed population there.

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