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Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

Ukraine: 'Putin tried to delay ceasefire deal so rebels could capture Debaltseve'

Friday 13 February 2015

The Russian president, Vladimir Putin, sought to delay agreement on a Ukrainian ceasefire at talks in Minsk because he wanted pro-Russia separatists to capture the eastern railway hub of Debaltseve, an EU summit has been told. Three of the four leaders at the talks in Minsk – the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, France’s president, François Hollande, and Ukraine’s embattled president, Petro Poroshenko – dashed to the Brussels summit directly from Belarus. Briefing 26 other EU heads of government on the fraught negotiations that resulted in a truce supposed to start on Sunday, the Minsk participants painted a picture that failed to inspire confidence.

Witnesses to the discussion said all the EU leaders were skeptical about the success of the Minsk peace plan, not least because Putin had resisted pressure for a ceasefire. He hoped to delay the truce by 10 days, the summit heard, in order to force the surrender of up to 8,000 Ukrainian troops who are surrounded in Debaltseve by pro-Russia separatists. Putin was said to have made it clear that Debaltseve had to fall. In public remarks following the deal, Putin also said that the separatists had the Ukrainian forces encircled and that “of course, they expect [the Ukrainians] to lay down their arms and cease resistance”.
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According to Merkel, Hollande, and Poroshenko, the little prick Putin wanted to extend the bloodshed and carnage for 10 days! to ensure the capture of Debaltseve. The strategically important rail-hub of Debaltseve will lie in a buffer zone at 00.00 am Kyiv time on February 15.

ukraine_battle_ceasefire2.svg
 
Hamster Buddha said:
If this was just a conflict between Ukrainians, then I'd says yes. Unfortunately, the moment the Russians stuck their nose into it, we have to respond with support. However, just because we support them, doesn't mean we should also be dictating how it plays out in the end. There's a difference you see?
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Wtf!!!! The Russians have been involved in negotiations all along with Ukraine, for years. After Ukraine elected Yanukovych the request to join NATO was withdrawn (2010) then in the Fall of 2013 he decided a better deal was to be had with Russia, which is when the US (Victoria Nuland and Co.) stuck their nose in!!!!!
 
face said:
Yes the fascists in the Kremlin and their ministry of propaganda known as RT are proven to have lied about every major issue regarding this conflict from the start, glad you are starting to get the picture.
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Proven, bwahahahahaha, by who???????
 
MildSteel said:
Russia has it's BS propaganda, the U.S. has it's BS propaganda. There is nothing new about that.
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See that's just the thing. But let the patronising klan tell it and the US hasn't/doesn't EVER disseminate propaganda, and all governments benefit from such died in the wool nationalism.
 
Simpleχity;1064308423 said:
Asked about this, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov had this to say...



The Minsk II ink isn't even dry yet and Russia is still refusing to release this POW.
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A POW is neither a hostage, nor an illegally detained person!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Montecresto said:
See that's just the thing. But let the patronising klan tell it and the US hasn't/doesn't EVER disseminate propaganda, and all governments benefit from such died in the wool nationalism.
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Indeed. Recall how Dick Cheney et al manufactured that BS about Iraqi WMDs and the mushroom cloud. You would think that people would know better by now.
 
MildSteel said:
Indeed. Recall how Dick Cheney et al manufactured that BS about Iraqi WMDs and the mushroom cloud. You would think that people would know better by now.
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Unfortunately, these guys are still in denial that the WMD/mushroom cloud disinformation was lies, and still defend it, even though neither the WMD nor the delivery system that would put it over Dallas or Chicago, never was found, lol.
 
Montecresto said:
Unfortunately, these guys are still in denial that the WMD/mushroom cloud disinformation was lies, and still defend it, even though neither the WMD nor the delivery system that would put it over Dallas or Chicago, never was found, lol.
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Yep. They say the NYT ran a whole story that WMDs were found. It is totally amazing how the propaganda machine works in this country. Amazing.
 
Montecresto said:
A POW is neither a hostage, nor an illegally detained person!!!!!!!!!!!
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She is being illegally detained.

Ms. Savchenko is a delegate to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (of which Russia is a member state) and is entitled to diplomatic immunity in all PACE member states.

Ukraine's Poroshenko Puts Detained Pilot Savchenko on Center Stage in Minsk

The Moscow Times
Feb. 12 2015

Emerging from all-night talks on Thursday, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said Ukrainian military pilot Nadezhda Savchenko would be released from a Russian prison soon. The fact that he singled out the 33-year-old in a deal that should end fighting in a conflict in east Ukraine, which has killed more than 5,000 people, underlined how important Savchenko, who was captured by pro-Russian forces and handed over to Russia, has become.

"I raised the issue of the release of Nadezhda Savchenko, and I was informed that it should be done soon after the medical examination and the preliminary findings of the investigation are finalized," Poroshenko told journalists in Minsk where he agreed with leaders from Russia, France and Germany a cease-fire for east Ukraine. "I asked it to be done immediately, and my appeal was supported by the French president and German chancellor. It was our joint position."

The Thursday deal envisages an "all for all" prisoner exchange and Moscow lawyer Mark Feigin said Savchenko was on Kiev's list.
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The formal Russian representative at Minsk - Mikhail Zurabov - signed the Minsk II document.
 
Montecresto said:
Unfortunately, these guys are still in denial that the WMD/mushroom cloud disinformation was lies, and still defend it, even though neither the WMD nor the delivery system that would put it over Dallas or Chicago, never was found, lol.
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I was certain the whole WMD thing was BS right from the very beginning and was necessary only to secure a big pile of dead Arabs post 9/11 whose coffins Bush could then ride into the Whitehouse for his second term .

What has that got to do with Ukraine ?
 
Montecresto said:
Wtf!!!! The Russians have been involved in negotiations all along with Ukraine, for years. After Ukraine elected Yanukovych the request to join NATO was withdrawn (2010) then in the Fall of 2013 he decided a better deal was to be had with Russia, which is when the US (Victoria Nuland and Co.) stuck their nose in!!!!!
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And at least 80% of his electorate disagreed given this was the opposite course from that laid out in the manifesto that got him elected in 2010. The rest as they say is history

This also might have had something to do with it

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/30/us-ukraine-crisis-yanukovich-idUSBREA3T0K820140430

Which then explains this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30777844

But of course its still all Americas fault just the same right ?
 
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Simpleχity;1064308833 said:
She is being illegally detained.

Ms. Savchenko is a delegate to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (of which Russia is a member state) and is entitled to diplomatic immunity in all PACE member states.

Ukraine's Poroshenko Puts Detained Pilot Savchenko on Center Stage in Minsk



The formal Russian representative at Minsk - Mikhail Zurabov - signed the Minsk II document.
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Sorry, it is legal to take prisoners of war. Having signed M-2 the Russians have five days to deliver her to Ukraine, and need to do so.
 
flogger said:
I was certain the whole WMD thing was BS right from the very beginning and was necessary only to secure a big pile of dead Arabs post 9/11 whose coffins Bush could then ride into the Whitehouse for his second term .

What has that got to do with Ukraine ?
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I was responding to Mildsteel, see his post for clarity.
 
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flogger said:
And at least 80% of his electorate disagreed given this was the opposite course from that laid out in the manifesto that got him elected in 2010. The rest as they say is history

This also might have had something to do with it

Toppled 'mafia' president cost Ukraine up to $100 billion, prosecutor says | Reuters

Which then explains this

BBC News - Ukraine ex-leader Yanukovych wanted by Interpol

But of course its still all Americas fault just the same right ?
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Then what civilised people do is remove the person in the next election, or, if its serious enough, hold a recall election. Under no circumstances do you throw a fit, begin burning government buildings, drive your president from his office firing upon his motorcade as he flees for his life. You needn't post further explanations of your position to me, I can see your situational ethics for what they are!
 
Montecresto said:
Then what civilised people do is remove the person in the next election, or, if its serious enough, hold a recall election.
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And how does that happen when he's jailed the opposition leaders ?

Under no circumstances do you throw a fit, begin burning government buildings, drive your president from his office firing upon his motorcade as he flees for his life.
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You might if you had no other option. Lets not forget that this guy was so corrupt that even members of his own cabinet abandoned him in the end and do you know what ? The US didn't pay them to either ! He then skipped the country and is under the protection of Moscow complete with the billions in Ukrainian state funds he sequestered on his departure. Doubtless he has found many kindred spirits in his new home

You needn't post further explanations of your position to me, I can see your situational ethics for what they are!
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At least I have some :roll:
 
flogger said:
And how does that happen when he's jailed the opposition leaders ?



You might if you had no other option. Lets not forget that this guy was so corrupt that even members of his own cabinet abandoned him in the end and do you know what ? The US didn't pay them to either ! He then skipped the country and is under the protection of Moscow complete with the billions in Ukrainian state funds he sequestered on his departure. Doubtless he has found many kindred spirits in his new home



At least I have some :roll:
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Yes, you have some, and they're blatantly situational.
 
Montecresto said:
Yes, you have some, and they're blatantly situational.
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I'm not a petty partisan bigot which I can pride myself on. I'll give the US a kicking with the best of them when its warranted, but not this time
 
MildSteel said:
I could use your rhetoric tool and say that your post is stupid but it would be counterproductive. Instead I will say that what you have ignored is this

2013-12-11t100513z_430869593_lr1e9cb0s.jpg


and these statements by the Assistant Secretary of State pictured above.

What is really going on in Ukraine is a struggle between the United States and Russia over influence in Europe. As such BOTH THE UNITED STATES AND RUSSIA HAVE THERE NOSES STUCK INTO THE AFFAIRS OF UKRAINE. Therefore it is certain that the U.S. will indeed try to influence how this plays out in the end, because how it plays out in the end will determine the amount of influence that Russia has in the world relative to the U.S.
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You make excellent points really, and nothing that in principle I disagree with. The problem boils down to the fact that when the US gets involved, you can have reasonable assurances that when the dust is settled, they'll leave the country to their own devices and don't try and bully them into falling into line. In fact, that's probably one of our greatest weaknesses that was demonstrated in Iraq for example. As much as people, probably like yourself, would love to argue that we did it "just for the oil" the moment we were able we hauled ass out of there. And incidentally, the majority of Iraqi oil goes to places like China than it does the US. With Russia however, they have a long track record of trying to impose their will on their neighbors that dates back to the Soviet Union. And as much as I'd love to say those times are long past, we know that's not the case from the way they went into Georgia, Annexed the Crimea and Sevastopol, and then continue to support and arm the rebels in Ukraine.

The US is going to make mistakes from time to time, but I'd argue to the end of the time that at least when we go in, we're doing it for not just our interests, but of everyone involved, including the enemy. I can't say the same for the Ex-KGB running the Kremlin, and I do believe history backs me up.
 
flogger said:
I'm not a petty partisan bigot which I can pride myself on. I'll give the US a kicking with the best of them when its warranted, but not this time
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That's not what I am referring to. I'm referring to the notion that an angry mob of a few hundred thousand, taking it upon themselves to crash the maiden square, burn out federal buildings and drive the president that was elected by the entire country, from his office under fire, and your hypocritical support of such behavior. That is your situational ethics, and the reason I dismiss your pov.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
You make excellent points really, and nothing that in principle I disagree with. The problem boils down to the fact that when the US gets involved, you can have reasonable assurances that when the dust is settled, they'll leave the country to their own devices and don't try and bully them into falling into line. In fact, that's probably one of our greatest weaknesses that was demonstrated in Iraq for example. As much as people, probably like yourself, would love to argue that we did it "just for the oil" the moment we were able we hauled ass out of there. And incidentally, the majority of Iraqi oil goes to places like China than it does the US. With Russia however, they have a long track record of trying to impose their will on their neighbors that dates back to the Soviet Union. And as much as I'd love to say those times are long past, we know that's not the case from the way they went into Georgia, Annexed the Crimea and Sevastopol, and then continue to support and arm the rebels in Ukraine.

The US is going to make mistakes from time to time, but I'd argue to the end of the time that at least when we go in, we're doing it for not just our interests, but of everyone involved, including the enemy. I can't say the same for the Ex-KGB running the Kremlin, and I do believe history backs me up.
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No such assurances exist in foreign policy, that's naive.
 
Montecresto said:
That's not what I am referring to. I'm referring to the notion that an angry mob of a few hundred thousand, taking it upon themselves to crash the maiden square, burn out federal buildings and drive the president that was elected by the entire country, from his office under fire, and your hypocritical support of such behavior. That is your situational ethics, and the reason I dismiss your pov.
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I'd find your position a good deal more credible if you were less concerned with how it happened and more concerned with why and I have provided you with more than enough info on that. Also need I remind you that there have been two internationally monitored elections in Ukraine since all this took place. In both elections (which were inclusive of over 90% of Ukraines electorate) Poroshenko won
 
flogger said:
I'd find your position a good deal more credible if you were less concerned with how it happened and more concerned with why and I have provided you with more than enough info on that. Also need I remind you that there have been two internationally monitored elections in Ukraine since all this took place. In both elections (which were inclusive of over 90% of Ukraines electorate) Poroshenko won
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All of which ignores the riotous actions at MS that I've noted several times, that you support because of your hypocritical, ends justifies the means, bull****. I'd like to see what sliver of ground you'd be standing on were the same thing to happen in Scotland with Russian support.
 
Montecresto said:
All of which ignores the riotous actions at MS that I've noted several times, that you support because of your hypocritical, ends justifies the means, bull****. .
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What hypocrisy is it to which you refer, because I've qualified my stance at every turn using hard fact rather than bigotry and subjective assertion ?

I'd like to see what sliver of ground you'd be standing on were the same thing to happen in Scotland with Russian support
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As ever please quantify the nature of this support the US provided to the Maidan protesters, or put more plainly what is it the US is supposed to have done here that materially assisted them in any way ?
 
flogger said:
What hypocrisy is it to which you refer, because I've qualified my stance at every turn using hard fact rather than bigotry and subjective assertion ?



As ever please quantify the nature of this support the US provided to the Maidan protesters, or put more plainly what is it the US is supposed to have done here that assisted them in any way ?
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Are you now telling me that you deny the fact that the US, from Obama to Kerry to Powers to Nuland and more did not support and sympathise with the protesters in Maiden Square, Jesus Christ my man, I'm fed up with your dishonesty, I deliberately will not be responding to anything else you have to say on this subject, it's no debate but a reckless waste of my time, auf widersehen!!!!!!
 
Montecresto said:
Are you now telling me that you deny the fact that the US, from Obama to Kerry to Powers to Nuland and more did not support and sympathise with the protesters in Maiden Square, Jesus Christ my man, I'm fed up with your dishonesty
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So you have in fact no evidence whatsoever that the US either provoked or materially assisted the Maidan protesters in any way. Fair enough

I deliberately will not be responding to anything else you have to say on this subject, it's no debate but a reckless waste of my time, auf widersehen!!!!!!
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Yes capitulation behind a smokescreen of faux anger is probably the only option left to you now :cool:
 
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