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Thread: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Debaltseve is surrounded and the rebels offered the trapped Ukraine troops a corridor out and leave their weapons behind. Apparently Poroshenko figures out those troops would be better off dead because orders from Kiev tell them to fight. If OSCE is allowed in they will be targets if the troops don't lay down their arms. Everybody knew this at the signing and Kiev is trying to this as deception to keep territory that is lost. Obviously, it is not going to work, just get 5-10,000 Kiev troops killed.
    Looks like the Ukrainian army has conceded Debaltseve. Poroshenko needs to come to a conclusion about the reality of the situation.

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    The point is that the U.S. did not kill those innocent children for their own good. We did not go there for the good of all involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    These are just people, Jesus, ok HB. And what are you and what are you spewing?
    I'm spewing hard, unquestionable facts. If the Iraq war was all about oil, or even just our benefit, then we would of put in a puppet into power and more than the majority of the Oil would at least being heading west instead of the ****ing China. It's not, and you know why it's not? Because once we liberated the country from Saddam, we only wanted to hand it over to it's people. Hell, if it were true that we really didn't care, then we would of left the moment things got screwy in 05 and 06 instead of doubling down and committing even more troops to the country in an attempt to restore order. It certainly didn't do us any favors putting our soldiers on the line for someone else's well being.

    (Let's try and keep this discussion to the motives of the invasion without spilling over into discussion of the results of said decisions, i.e. the rise of a sectarian government in Iraq. That's already being covered in other threads.)

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    The Minsk II ceasefire went into effect on 00.01 am (EET) 15, February 2015. There were no exceptions to the ceasefire in the Minsk II Accord.

    As I've posted previously, and you've simply ignored because it doesn't suit your pro-Russia agenda. Once again...

    Ukraine rebels disavow ceasefire at encircled town



    Not only have the rebels ignored the ceasefire at Debaltseve in violation of Minsk II, but they have also denied the OSCE (international monitors) access to Debaltseve which is also a violation of Minsk II.
    I repeat. Even knowing the Ukrainians at Debaltseve were surrounded, Poroshenko insisted that they fight. The rebels offered a safe corridor if they left their weapons behind. They were surrounded before Minsk II and it was common knowldge among all that Debaltseve was not settled. The corridor was offerred at that time. The dead troops can be ragarded as Poroshenko suicides because they were avoidable. He will probably have to watch his back in Kiev. I have a pro-Ukraine agenda. It is the common people of Ukraine that have been suffering since the USA/CIA coup installed the current low lifes. This is a war of CHOICE by Poroshenko against Ukrainians who didn't choose to accept the coup that is installed to organize the theft of Ukrainian's patrimony.
    Last edited by DaveFagan; 02-18-15 at 09:52 AM.

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Looks like the Ukrainian army has conceded Debaltseve. Poroshenko needs to come to a conclusion about the reality of the situation.
    He has. Withdraw from Debaltseve and save many lives. The sobering reality is that the rebels repudiated the Minsk II Accord in Debaltseve.


    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet. -- Marine Corps General James 'Chaos' Mattis

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    I repeat. Even knowing the Ukrainians at Debaltseve were surrounded, Poroshenko insisted that they fight. The rebels offered a safe corridor if they left their weapons behind. They were surrounded before Minsk II and it was common knowldge among all that Debaltseve was not settled. The corridor was offerred at that time. The dead troops can be ragarded as Poroshenko suicides because they were avoidable. He will probably have to watch his back in Kiev. I have a pro-Ukraine agenda. It is the common people of Ukraine that have been suffering since the USA/CIA coup installed the current low lifes. This is a war of CHOICE by Poroshenko against Ukrainians who didn't choose to accept the coup that is installed to organize the theft of Ukrainian's patrimony.
    They were not surrounded when the ceasefire commenced. That is precisely why the rebels had to violate Minsk II ... to accomplish the encirclement.


    Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet. -- Marine Corps General James 'Chaos' Mattis

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    I'm spewing hard, unquestionable facts. If the Iraq war was all about oil, or even just our benefit, then we would of put in a puppet into power and more than the majority of the Oil would at least being heading west instead of the ****ing China. It's not, and you know why it's not? Because once we liberated the country from Saddam, we only wanted to hand it over to it's people. Hell, if it were true that we really didn't care, then we would of left the moment things got screwy in 05 and 06 instead of doubling down and committing even more troops to the country in an attempt to restore order. It certainly didn't do us any favors putting our soldiers on the line for someone else's well being.

    (Let's try and keep this discussion to the motives of the invasion without spilling over into discussion of the results of said decisions, i.e. the rise of a sectarian government in Iraq. That's already being covered in other threads.)
    Most everybody I quoted were republicans, and all during the Bush administration. Maintaining the free flow of oil out of the region has been US policy for decades.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    I'm spewing hard, unquestionable facts. If the Iraq war was all about oil, or even just our benefit, then we would of put in a puppet into power and more than the majority of the Oil would at least being heading west instead of the ****ing China. It's not, and you know why it's not? Because once we liberated the country from Saddam, we only wanted to hand it over to it's people. Hell, if it were true that we really didn't care, then we would of left the moment things got screwy in 05 and 06 instead of doubling down and committing even more troops to the country in an attempt to restore order. It certainly didn't do us any favors putting our soldiers on the line for someone else's well being.

    (Let's try and keep this discussion to the motives of the invasion without spilling over into discussion of the results of said decisions, i.e. the rise of a sectarian government in Iraq. That's already being covered in other threads.)
    Stop being so naive about this Buddha.

    The Carter Doctrine was a policy proclaimed by President of the United States Jimmy Carter in his State of the Union Address on January 23, 1980, which stated that the United States would use military force if necessary to defend its national interests in the Persian Gulf region. The doctrine was a response to the 1979 invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviet Union, and was intended to deter the Soviet Union—the Cold War adversary of the United States—from seeking hegemony in the Persian Gulf. After stating that Soviet troops in Afghanistan posed "a grave threat to the free movement of Middle East oil", Carter proclaimed:

    Let our position be absolutely clear: An attempt by any outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such an assault will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force. (full speech)

    United States presidential doctrines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Like Hagel said, "what the hell do you think we're in the ME for, figs"?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Most everybody I quoted were republicans, and all during the Bush administration. Maintaining the free flow of oil out of the region has been US policy for decades.
    There's a difference between maintaining the free flow, which I agree is a huge part of foreign policy in the region, and say going into a county with the explicit purpose to get more oil. That being that our focus is not to force regional players into doing X, but merely to make sure everyone plays nice. What you and others are accusing the US of doing is moving from a neutral actor to someone who is in it just for the benefits the US will receive. If that was the case, again, we'd be getting a lot better than third in Iraqi oil exports don't you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Stop being so naive about this Buddha.

    The Carter Doctrine was a policy proclaimed by President of the United States Jimmy Carter in his State of the Union Address on January 23, 1980, which stated that the United States would use military force if necessary to defend its national interests in the Persian Gulf region. The doctrine was a response to the 1979 invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviet Union, and was intended to deter the Soviet Union—the Cold War adversary of the United States—from seeking hegemony in the Persian Gulf. After stating that Soviet troops in Afghanistan posed "a grave threat to the free movement of Middle East oil", Carter proclaimed:

    Let our position be absolutely clear: An attempt by any outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such an assault will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force. (full speech)

    United States presidential doctrines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Like Hagel said, "what the hell do you think we're in the ME for, figs"?
    Refer to previous post.

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    I'm spewing hard, unquestionable facts. If the Iraq war was all about oil, or even just our benefit, then we would of put in a puppet into power and more than the majority of the Oil would at least being heading west instead of the ****ing China. It's not, and you know why it's not? Because once we liberated the country from Saddam, we only wanted to hand it over to it's people. Hell, if it were true that we really didn't care, then we would of left the moment things got screwy in 05 and 06 instead of doubling down and committing even more troops to the country in an attempt to restore order. It certainly didn't do us any favors putting our soldiers on the line for someone else's well being.

    (Let's try and keep this discussion to the motives of the invasion without spilling over into discussion of the results of said decisions, i.e. the rise of a sectarian government in Iraq. That's already being covered in other threads.)
    You say you are spewing hard facts but you are spewing opinion. The U.S. had significant in negotiations about how Iraq's oil resources were to be used. Over and above that, the U.S. gave up support for Maliki, in part due to the whole issue about the oil resources Kurdistan.

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    Re: Ceasefire agreed for eastern Ukraine after Minsk summit

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    They were not surrounded when the ceasefire commenced. That is precisely why the rebels had to violate Minsk II ... to accomplish the encirclement.
    They were surrounded before the ceasefire commenced and that is the point. Poroshenko knew they were toast and had no more respect for his own Ukrainian troops than for the Ukrainian separatists he has been offensively attacking. Poroshenko is defending his IMF loan package because Ukraine was not attacked by the separatists. Now, with lots more dead Poroshenko can ponder the wisdom of his collossal igrorance. The Kiev leadership makes pond scum look like a higher life form and the USA supports them. Disgusting!

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