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North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students [W:43, 109]

Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

So many asses. So little cover.
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

Hamster Buddha said:
Weird, I'm trying to reply with a quote to the previous post but get this... in any case:

This is fascinating if this turns out to be true. I don't know of many acts of violence carried out in the name of Atheism.
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:raises eyebrow: really? Did you miss that whole Communist Thing last century?
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

EnigmaO01 said:
Sounds very naive to think their ethinic and religious difference had nothing to do with it it.

As far as FOX they are trying to cover their ass.
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What is Fox trying to cover? They repeated what most outlets said starting Tuesday night, that this may possibly be a hate crime.
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

cpwill said:
:raises eyebrow: really? Did you miss that whole Communist Thing last century?
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Soviet Union is tricky in that regard. Keep in mind they did still recognize religious institutions like the Catholic Church (remember that John Paul II was in Communist Poland), and of course the Russian Orthodox church. It is true in their earlier days they went after Christians though. However, after Stalin's death, I don't find them as the bastion of Atheism that many believe they were.
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

Hamster Buddha said:
Soviet Union is tricky in that regard. Keep in mind they did still recognize religious institutions like the Catholic Church (remember that John Paul II was in Communist Poland), and of course the Russian Orthodox church. It is true in their earlier days they went after Christians though. However, after Stalin's death, I don't find them as the bastion of Atheism that many believe they were.
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:shrug: Soviet Union is hardly alone. China, North Korea, Cambodia... Christianity is still a capital crime in North Korea. Athiesm is no less violent than the worlds' religions, and if anything, has the highest body counts.
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

cpwill said:
:shrug: Soviet Union is hardly alone. China, North Korea, Cambodia... Christianity is still a capital crime in North Korea. Athiesm is no less violent than the worlds' religions, and if anything, has the highest body counts.
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I suppose so, I just never think of them in those ways. Focusing more on the political aspects instead of the religious one I suppose. But touche I suppose.
 
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Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

ReverendHellh0und said:
lol.... really?

5 Points To Know About Craig Hicks, Man Accused Of Killing 3 Muslim Students

1. devout athiest
2. railed against "the religious right"
3. gay rights advocate

Yeah, he sounds like hannity's BFF!

/facepalm
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Well, there is this real belief (contradicted by most of the evidence) on the left that it is the right that is angry and violent. You know, that's why the Occupy Protestors left public spaces cleaner than they found them, while the Tea Partier movement featured riots and rapes. :roll:


Myself, I think it's projection. So much of the leftist self-identification is built on self-congratulation, the notion that We Are The Good Guys And So Therefore They Are The Bad Guys, that, on a certain level, they can't help it. The Oklahoma City Bombing is Rush Limbaugh's fault. Cathy Gifford was shot by Sarah Palin. Evidence is immaterial compared to the Greater Truth.
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

Moderator's Warning:
Stopping this before it gets ramped up. If you want to discuss athiesm and it's role in past regimes take it to another thread. Not directly pertinent to discussing this news story. Ditto for musings about "leftist self-identification" or occupy/tea party. Narrow topic, focus on it.
 
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Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

Over a parking spot? Really?! I hope he never gets out of prison.

Were 3 slain for their religion or their parking space?

Imad Ahmad, who lived in the condo where his friends were killed until Barakat and Mohammed were married in December, said Hicks complained about once a month that the two men were parking in a visitor's space as well as their assigned spot.

"He would come over to the door. Knock on the door and then have a gun on his hip saying 'you guys need to not park here,'" said Ahmad, a graduate student in chemistry at UNC-Chapel Hill. "He did it again after they got married."

Both Hicks and his neighbors complained to the property managers, who apparently didn't intervene. "They told us to call the police if the guy came and harassed us again," Ahmad said.

"This man was frustrated day in and day out about not being able to park where he wanted to," said Karen Hicks' attorney, Robert Maitland.
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Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

spangledbanner said:
On his Facebook page, he states his political views as "I don't care about parties, just each individual and the rights of such in the constitution! Some call me a gun-toting liberal, others call me an open-minded conservative. I don't fall into any category, as I do not follow any decision blindly for a group."

An American. No side can blame the other.

Why didnt the media cover this story? Why did it take them 8 hours?
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An " open minded Conservative " thats a fan of Maddow ?

He's a Religion hating leftist and blaming the Media is lazy and misinformed.
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

This thread is a perfect example of how packaging a story is much more important than the story itself. The story is a tragedy of how a maniac killed several people over something mundane and ridiculous, but that just wasnt "sexy" enough. So instead the story is written up essentially as "Savage atheist goes on murder rampage!!!!" and, well, a full day later and everybody is still bitching about atheism, religion and hate crimes.
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

cpwill said:
:shrug: Soviet Union is hardly alone. China, North Korea, Cambodia... Christianity is still a capital crime in North Korea. Athiesm is no less violent than the worlds' religions, and if anything, has the highest body counts.
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They are not using atheism as the reason for killing people, but rather the lack of complete loyalty to the government. There is a difference, whether you wish to recognize it or not. Nothing about being an atheist requires killing anyone since there are no commandments, edicts, orders, sins, anything of the sort from atheism. There is only people who if they had religious beliefs, would almost certainly be just as hateful and fervent in those religious beliefs because it is their anger issues and mental health issues, not someone trying to convince them it is the way to a better afterlife, that leads to atheist killing people when it happens. While this is also true for many, many religious people, there are some religious beliefs that encourage such things, including the Muslims belief that if they die a martyr they will be rewarded with riches in the afterlife by Allah and the Bible's edicts to kill certain people, such as witches and homosexuals.
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

roguenuke said:
They are not using atheism as the reason for killing people, but rather the lack of complete loyalty to the government. There is a difference, whether you wish to recognize it or not
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When that is because the government is explicitly atheist, no, there isn't. If the Vatican began to execute non-Catholics, no one would say "well it's just because they aren't completely dedicated to following the Pope in all matters, not because they aren't Catholic", because that would be just as silly as the argument you just made.

Nothing about being an atheist requires killing anyone since there are no commandments, edicts, orders, sins, anything of the sort from atheism.
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:shrug: sure. But that is not the question, which was, do people kill for atheism. Well, yes, they do. Whether or not atheism as a belief system easily lends itself to that is interesting, but not really material.
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

Cardinal said:
This thread is a perfect example of how packaging a story is much more important than the story itself. The story is a tragedy of how a maniac killed several people over something mundane and ridiculous, but that just wasnt "sexy" enough. So instead the story is written up essentially as "Savage atheist goes on murder rampage!!!!" and, well, a full day later and everybody is still bitching about atheism, religion and hate crimes.
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well, no. People in the thread went with the "clearly this is the result of FOX news and the conservative movement!" argument, and the "no, he's a left-wing atheist" bit was in response to that.
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

cpwill said:
When that is because the government is explicitly atheist, no, there isn't. If the Vatican began to execute non-Catholics, no one would say "well it's just because they aren't completely dedicated to following the Pope in all matters, not because they aren't Catholic", because that would be just as silly as the argument you just made.

:shrug: sure. But that is not the question, which was, do people kill for atheism. Well, yes, they do. Whether or not atheism as a belief system easily lends itself to that is interesting, but not really material.
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The reasoning behind why people are being killed is absolutely important in this discussion. That is what is separating the subjects. Not all theocracies kill people, although if they are a theocracy, they are almost certainly oppressing other people in some way through the laws. But they are theocracies because they place the laws of their religion as the laws of the land and require everyone who lives there to abide by their religious edicts. Atheism does not have any edicts to it. There are no rules to being an atheist.
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

roguenuke said:
The reasoning behind why people are being killed is absolutely important in this discussion. That is what is separating the subjects. Not all theocracies kill people, although if they are a theocracy, they are almost certainly oppressing other people in some way through the laws. But they are theocracies because they place the laws of their religion as the laws of the land and require everyone who lives there to abide by their religious edicts. Atheism does not have any edicts to it. There are no rules to being an atheist.
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:shrug: you may say that there are no inherent requirements in Atheism to spread your belief (I would disagree, but it's a valid position), but that's not the question. The question was were there acts of violence carried out in the name of atheism. In which case the answer is "yes, lots of them". When you are enforcing the state's atheistic view on the populace, it is the same as enforcing state's Protestant, Catholic, Islamic, or [fill in blank] view on the populace. The edict "Thou Shalt Be An Atheist Or Else" is no different from a coercion-measurement point of view than the edicts that Thou Shalt Be A Muslim Or Else or Thou Shalt Be A Lutheran Or Else.
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

cpwill said:
:shrug: you may say that there are no inherent requirements in Atheism to spread your belief (I would disagree, but it's a valid position), but that's not the question. The question was were there acts of violence carried out in the name of atheism. In which case the answer is "yes, lots of them". When you are enforcing the state's atheistic view on the populace, it is the same as enforcing state's Protestant, Catholic, Islamic, or [fill in blank] view on the populace. The edict "Thou Shalt Be An Atheist Or Else" is no different from a coercion-measurement point of view than the edicts that Thou Shalt Be A Muslim Or Else or Thou Shalt Be A Lutheran Or Else.
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There are very few in the name of atheism.
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

roguenuke said:
There are very few in the name of atheism.
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One could argue that the imposition of Communism was an atheist movement of sorts, and thus is responsible for millions of deaths.
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

j-mac said:
One could argue that the imposition of Communism was an atheist movement of sorts, and thus is responsible for millions of deaths.
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And that person would be wrong. Many communists countries don't care if people have beliefs, plus their motivation to kill opposers is not based on tenets of atheism, because there are none, but political motivations for power and maintaining that power.
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

roguenuke said:
And that person would be wrong. Many communists countries don't care if people have beliefs, plus their motivation to kill opposers is not based on tenets of atheism, because there are none, but political motivations for power and maintaining that power.
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Well, let's see what the experts say:

"Religion is the opium of the people,' said Karl Marx. It is the task of the Communist Party to make this truth comprehensible to the widest possible circles of the labouring masses. It is the task of the party to impress firmly upon the minds of the workers, even upon the most backward, that religion has been in the past and still is today one of the most powerful means at the disposal of the oppressors for the maintenance of inequality, exploitation, and slavish obedience on the part of the toilers.

Many weak-kneed communists reason as follows: 'Religion does not prevent my being a communist. I believe both in God and in communism. My faith in God does not hinder me from fighting for the cause of the proletarian revolution.'

This train of thought is radically false. Religion and communism are incompatible, both theoretically and practically.

Every communist must regard social phenomena (the relationships between human beings, revolutions, wars, etc.) as processes which occur in accordance with definite laws. The laws of social development have been fully established by scientific communism on the basis of the theory of historical materialism which we owe to our great teachers Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. This theory explains that social development is not brought about by any kind of supernatural forces. Nay more. The same theory has demonstrated that the very idea of God and of supernatural powers arises at a definite stage in human history, and at another definite stage begins to disappear as a childish notion which finds no confirmation in practical life and in the struggle between man and nature. But it is profitable to the predatory class to maintain the ignorance of the people and to maintain the people's childish belief in miracles (the key to the riddle really lies in the exploiters' pockets), and this is why religious prejudices are so tenacious, and why they confuse the minds even of persons who are in other respects able."

snip

"In practice, no less than in theory, communism is incompatible with religious faith. The tactic of the Communist Party prescribes for the members of the party definite lines of conduct. The moral code of every religion in like manner prescribes for the faithful some definite line of conduct. For example, the Christian code runs: 'Whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.' In most cases there is an irreconcilable conflict between the principles of communist tactics and the commandments of religion. A communist who rejects the commandments of religion and acts in accordance with the directions of the party, ceases to be one of the faithful. On the other hand, one who, while calling himself a communist, continues to cling to his religious faith, one who in the name of religious commandments infringes the prescriptions of the party, ceases thereby to be a communist."

https://www.marxists.org/archive/bukharin/works/1920/abc/11.htm

There you have it.
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

roguenuke said:
There are very few in the name of atheism.
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Sure. Communist states only executed a vanishingly small number of people, I'm sure.
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

cpwill said:
Sure. Communist states only executed a vanishingly small number of people, I'm sure.
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Executing people in the name of communism is absolutely not the same as executing in the name of atheism.
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

j-mac said:
Well, let's see what the experts say:

"Religion is the opium of the people,' said Karl Marx. It is the task of the Communist Party to make this truth comprehensible to the widest possible circles of the labouring masses. It is the task of the party to impress firmly upon the minds of the workers, even upon the most backward, that religion has been in the past and still is today one of the most powerful means at the disposal of the oppressors for the maintenance of inequality, exploitation, and slavish obedience on the part of the toilers.

Many weak-kneed communists reason as follows: 'Religion does not prevent my being a communist. I believe both in God and in communism. My faith in God does not hinder me from fighting for the cause of the proletarian revolution.'

This train of thought is radically false. Religion and communism are incompatible, both theoretically and practically.

Every communist must regard social phenomena (the relationships between human beings, revolutions, wars, etc.) as processes which occur in accordance with definite laws. The laws of social development have been fully established by scientific communism on the basis of the theory of historical materialism which we owe to our great teachers Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. This theory explains that social development is not brought about by any kind of supernatural forces. Nay more. The same theory has demonstrated that the very idea of God and of supernatural powers arises at a definite stage in human history, and at another definite stage begins to disappear as a childish notion which finds no confirmation in practical life and in the struggle between man and nature. But it is profitable to the predatory class to maintain the ignorance of the people and to maintain the people's childish belief in miracles (the key to the riddle really lies in the exploiters' pockets), and this is why religious prejudices are so tenacious, and why they confuse the minds even of persons who are in other respects able."

snip

"In practice, no less than in theory, communism is incompatible with religious faith. The tactic of the Communist Party prescribes for the members of the party definite lines of conduct. The moral code of every religion in like manner prescribes for the faithful some definite line of conduct. For example, the Christian code runs: 'Whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.' In most cases there is an irreconcilable conflict between the principles of communist tactics and the commandments of religion. A communist who rejects the commandments of religion and acts in accordance with the directions of the party, ceases to be one of the faithful. On the other hand, one who, while calling himself a communist, continues to cling to his religious faith, one who in the name of religious commandments infringes the prescriptions of the party, ceases thereby to be a communist."

https://www.marxists.org/archive/bukharin/works/1920/abc/11.htm

There you have it.
Click to expand...

Marx does not speak for nor represent all communists.
 
Re: North Carolina man charged in shooting death of 3 Muslim students

spangledbanner said:
I blame Fox News for this primarily and US media in general. It was only a matter of time. I hope that Bill ORielly and Sean Hannity are happy now.
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Wooot!

Fox News is now responsible for Parking Disputes!!!!!
 
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