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Civil Rights Attorneys Sue Ferguson Over 'Debtors Prisons'

stonewall50 said:
That isn't s victimless crime. They run into people, cause damage, and there is no penalty if they don't pay. They don't have insurance. They won't even pay traffic tickets.

I saw this a lot. People not paying and driving on suspended licenses getting ANOTHER ticket for a car accident and causing problems for those of us who do.
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I agree it isn't victimless they are a threat to the rest of the driving public at large
 
ludin said:
It isn't debtors prison. failing to pay a parking ticket gets you jail time. multiple failures ups the penalty of the citation. from just a ticket up to a misdemeanor if they are bad enough.
It is a personal responsibility.
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Incarcerating someone for not being able to pay a fine is the definition of debtor's prison.

Driving is a privilege not a right. if you want to drive then you need to obey the rules of the road.
I think I have gotten 2 tickets since I was 18 in driving. both my fault. I paid the fine and went on with my life.

what right do they have to break the law and not have to pay the fine for doing it?
how hard is it to not get a parking ticket or multiple parking tickets?
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I'm not saying that they don't have to obey the rules. reading is fun.

Driving on suspended licenses, with no insurance is a danger to other people and there is a reason that their license has been suspended.
you are not allowed to drive at all without insurance. why? because you endanger other people with your carelessness.
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Having a license is in no way a measure to one's ability to drive safely. Driving without insurance does not increase the danger factor in driving.
 
azgreg said:
Incarcerating someone for not being able to pay a fine is the definition of debtor's prison.
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no it isn't they are going to prison for violating the law.



I'm not saying that they don't have to obey the rules. reading is fun.
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evidently since you don't think they should suffer penalties for breaking the law. then breaking the law again.


Having a license is in no way a measure to one's ability to drive safely. Driving without insurance does not increase the danger factor in driving.
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100% wrong. for if you don't drive safely they take it away from you.

yes it does because car insurance is not for you it is to protect other people from you.
driving without insurance means that you don't care what happens when you hit someone else.

it increases the danger and financial obligation that other people have to pay due to your negligence.
 
azgreg said:
Many of these people are jailed for failing to pay court fees, and most traffic violations do not involve another person. Hence the term victimless.
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That doesn't mean all. And you need to consider that they are violating traffic laws. So maybe speeding? Or parking illegally? Those laws are in place for a reason. And when you won't pay your fines for breaking simple laws...you should be punished. Driving is a privilege. Not a right.

When these people hit someone...they won't be paying for it. These people will cause a massive headache for someone if they get into an accident...which is not a far fetched concept.
 
ludin said:
no it isn't they are going to prison for violating the law.
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The Supreme court disagrees with you.

evidently since you don't think they should suffer penalties for breaking the law. then breaking the law again.
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I said no such thing. Reading is fundamental, you should try it some time.

100% wrong. for if you don't drive safely they take it away from you.

yes it does because car insurance is not for you it is to protect other people from you.
driving without insurance means that you don't care what happens when you hit someone else.

it increases the danger and financial obligation that other people have to pay due to your negligence.
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My sister has a license and insurance and she's been in 7 accidents, all of them her fault. All insurance does is guarantee the ability to pay for damages caused by you. Does nothing in determining the level of safety.
 
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stonewall50 said:
That doesn't mean all. And you need to consider that they are violating traffic laws. So maybe speeding? Or parking illegally? Those laws are in place for a reason. And when you won't pay your fines for breaking simple laws...you should be punished. Driving is a privilege. Not a right.

When these people hit someone...they won't be paying for it. These people will cause a massive headache for someone if they get into an accident...which is not a far fetched concept.
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Sure laws are in place for a reason, and some of those reasons are good ones. A traffic violation and failing to pay a fee or fine are victimless. Now if someone commits a traffic violation and it involves damage or injuries to someone else then it no longer is victimless is it. You and ludin need to re-read the OP. You guys are defending an argument that isn't there.
 
azgreg said:
The Supreme court disagrees with you.
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No they don't. they keep people in prison all the time for breaking the law.
multiple traffic violations can get you sent to prison.


I said no such thing. reading is fundamental, you should try it some time.
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then quit trying to get them out of something that they personally did to themselves.


My sister has a license and insurance and she's been in 7 accidents, all of them her fault. All insurance does is guarantee the ability to pay for damages caused by you. Does nothing in determining the level of safety.
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she is also paying high risk insurance and/or it has been years between accidents and the points have worn off.
you are wrong and continue to be wrong. insurance isn't about you it is about protecting other people from your sister.

if she didn't have insurance I expect her to go to jail and have her car impounded as is the law in most states.
 
azgreg said:
Sure laws are in place for a reason, and some of those reasons are good ones. A traffic violation and failing to pay a fee or fine are victimless. Now if someone commits a traffic violation and it involves damage or injuries to someone else then it no longer is victimless is it. You and ludin need to re-read the OP. You guys are defending an argument that isn't there.
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no traffic violations are not victimless they are there to prevent people from being victims.
no we are just countering your claims that are wrong.

parking violations depending on what they are put other people at risk.
 
ludin said:
No they don't. they keep people in prison all the time for breaking the law.
multiple traffic violations can get you sent to prison.
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You need to read Williams v Illinois, Tate v Short, and Bearden v Georgia.

then quit trying to get them out of something that they personally did to themselves.
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I'm not. I have said repeatedly that they should be penalized and giving examples of penalties. Incarceration shouldn't be one of them.

she is also paying high risk insurance and/or it has been years between accidents and the points have worn off.
you are wrong and continue to be wrong. insurance isn't about you it is about protecting other people from your sister.
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That's what I said. It guarantees payment for one's damage. Maybe you need to go to this site: Reading Is Fundamental

if she didn't have insurance I expect her to go to jail and have her car impounded as is the law in most states.
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Driving without insurance is another example of victimless crime. It should be penalized, but not by incarceration.
 
ludin said:
no traffic violations are not victimless they are there to prevent people from being victims.
no we are just countering your claims that are wrong.

parking violations depending on what they are put other people at risk.
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I changes lanes this morning without signaling on the way to work. Who is the victim?
 
azgreg said:
I changes lanes this morning without signaling on the way to work. Who is the victim?
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"I drove home from the bar drunk as hell. Who's the victim?"
 
azgreg said:
You need to read Williams v Illinois, Tate v Short, and Bearden v Georgia.
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Which have no bearing on this case.
not paying a traffic ticket gets you a warrant for a possible arrest.
having to many parking tickets and or driving on a suspended license or without insurance gets you taken to jail.

it has nothing to do with debtors prison. it has to do with breaking the law.


I'm not. I have said repeatedly that they should be penalized and giving examples of penalties. Incarceration shouldn't be one of them.
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to bad that is what happens when you drive without insurance or a license you spend a night in jail and get your car impounded.
same goes for not paying traffic tickets.


That's what I said. It guarantees payment for one's damage. Maybe you need to go to this site: Reading Is Fundamental
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So without that you are a danger to the rest of us because you can't protect us against you for your recklessness. you are being an irresponsible driver.


Driving without insurance is another example of victimless crime. It should be penalized, but not by incarceration.
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No it isn't victimless. you have no idea what you are talking about.
 
azgreg said:
I changes lanes this morning without signaling on the way to work. Who is the victim?
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the person in the other lane that didn't know you were going to change lanes in front of them and had to slam on their brakes to avoid hitting you.
there is a reason that they put blinkers on a car.

or they had to swerve out of the way because you just decided to change lanes without signaling.
you put other people at risk.

there is a reason that it is a traffic violation for failure to signal.
 
so bottom lining this

the poor can double park, park in handicap spots, never pay a parking meter, never keep their DL renewed, never keep insurance on their car

wow....

how about since they are so poor, and cant afford to do the right things with their car, we just take it away

i am sure there are buses....maybe an hour wait in 10 degrees weather will change some of their minds on what society will and wont allow
 
gdgyva said:
so bottom lining this

the poor can double park, park in handicap spots, never pay a parking meter, never keep their DL renewed, never keep insurance on their car

wow....

how about since they are so poor, and cant afford to do the right things with their car, we just take it away

i am sure there are buses....maybe an hour wait in 10 degrees weather will change some of their minds on what society will and wont allow
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Who said this?
 
ludin said:
the person in the other lane that didn't know you were going to change lanes in front of them and had to slam on their brakes to avoid hitting you.
there is a reason that they put blinkers on a car.

or they had to swerve out of the way because you just decided to change lanes without signaling.
you put other people at risk.

there is a reason that it is a traffic violation for failure to signal.
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None of those things happened. I changed lanes without signaling and nobody else was effected. So who's the victim?

Right now it's clear that you are arguing just for the sake of arguing just like always.
 
ludin said:
Which have no bearing on this case.
not paying a traffic ticket gets you a warrant for a possible arrest.
having to many parking tickets and or driving on a suspended license or without insurance gets you taken to jail.

it has nothing to do with debtors prison. it has to do with breaking the law.
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All 3 have a bearing on debtor's prison. Anyone who can read knows that.

to bad that is what happens when you drive without insurance or a license you spend a night in jail and get your car impounded.
same goes for not paying traffic tickets.
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This is the argument in the OP. These are victimless crimes and incarcerating them based on their inability to pay violates their right to equal protection as outlined in the 14th amendment.

So without that you are a danger to the rest of us because you can't protect us against you for your recklessness. you are being an irresponsible driver.



No it isn't victimless. you have no idea what you are talking about.
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I'm not arguing that's it's irresponsible to not have insurance. I have insurance. The argument is about incarcerating people because they are poor, and it's clear that you don't like them.
 
azgreg said:
None of those things happened. I changed lanes without signaling and nobody else was effected. So who's the victim?

Right now it's clear that you are arguing just for the sake of arguing just like always.
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doesn't matter they didn't happen that time. there is a reason that changing lanes without signaling is a moving violation.
nope not at all.

it proves that you are wrong. there is a law that says failure to signal is against the law? why? to protect other drivers from your recklessness.

the fine for a failure to signal depending on the states is 150 dollars and up to 13 days in jail (not usually for first offense).
multiple fine can range from 250-400.

use your blinkering it takes 2 seconds to turn it on and depending on the situation you don't even have to turn it off.
you got lucky it didn't happen that time. that doesn't mean it won't happen next time.
 
azgreg said:
All 3 have a bearing on debtor's prison. Anyone who can read knows that.
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that has no bearing on the case because you aren't being taken to jail for that. you are being taken to jail for breaking the law multiple times.
failure to pay is a contempt charge for failure to appear.

on the ticket you have I think 60-90 days depending on the state to either fight the ticket or pay the ticket.
to do neither is what gets you in trouble and sent to jail.


This is the argument in the OP. These are victimless crimes and incarcerating them based on their inability to pay violates their right to equal protection as outlined in the 14th amendment.
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no it doesn't. it is perfectly clear written on the ticket that you accept the penalty for not paying or showing up in court. not paying is the same as not showing up for court.
you are taken to jail for contempt of court.

I'm not arguing that's it's irresponsible to not have insurance. I have insurance. The argument is about incarcerating people because they are poor, and it's clear that you don't like them.
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they aren't going to jail because they are poor. appeal to emotion. they are going to jail for breaking the law.

the law says that in order to drive you must:
1. have a valid drivers license
2. have valid proof of registration
3. have valid proof of insurance.

You don't like the fact that the law applies to everyone equally. it has nothing to do with being poor.
 
ludin said:
that has no bearing on the case because you aren't being taken to jail for that. you are being taken to jail for breaking the law multiple times.
failure to pay is a contempt charge for failure to appear.

on the ticket you have I think 60-90 days depending on the state to either fight the ticket or pay the ticket.
to do neither is what gets you in trouble and sent to jail.




no it doesn't. it is perfectly clear written on the ticket that you accept the penalty for not paying or showing up in court. not paying is the same as not showing up for court.
you are taken to jail for contempt of court.



they aren't going to jail because they are poor. appeal to emotion. they are going to jail for breaking the law.

the law says that in order to drive you must:
1. have a valid drivers license
2. have valid proof of registration
3. have valid proof of insurance.

You don't like the fact that the law applies to everyone equally. it has nothing to do with being poor.
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You need to read the OP again. It's clear you have no idea what's being discussed. I'm guilty as well of taking this slightly off topic. The article being discussed in the article is about jailing people for the simple reason that they don't have the means to pay the fine and/or fees. It's clear thought that you want to incarcerate everyone for the slightest of transgressions.
 
azgreg said:
You need to read the OP again. It's clear you have no idea what's being discussed. I'm guilty as well of taking this slightly off topic. The article being discussed in the article is about jailing people for the simple reason that they don't have the means to pay the fine and/or fees. It's clear thought that you want to incarcerate everyone for the slightest of transgressions.
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they arent being jailed for being poor

they are being jailed for a failure to comply with the laws first, and then failure to live up to the penalties decreed by the state second

they wouldnt be in jail if they hadnt broken ordinances, or laws......period!
 
gdgyva said:
they arent being jailed for being poor

they are being jailed for a failure to comply with the laws first, and then failure to live up to the penalties decreed by the state second

they wouldnt be in jail if they hadnt broken ordinances, or laws......period!
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They are being jailed because they can't pay the fine. There are also many being incarcerated because they can't pay the additional court fees.

As Court Fees Rise, The Poor Are Paying The Price : NPR

In Augusta, Ga., a judge sentenced Tom Barrett to 12 months after he stole a can of beer worth less than $2.

In Ionia, Mich., 19-year-old Kyle Dewitt caught a fish out of season; then a judge sentenced him to three days in jail.

In Grand Rapids, Mich., Stephen Papa, a homeless Iraq War veteran, spent 22 days in jail, not for what he calls his "embarrassing behavior" after he got drunk with friends and climbed into an abandoned building, but because he had only $25 the day he went to court.

The common thread in these cases, and scores more like them, is the jail time wasn't punishment for the crime, but for the failure to pay the increasing fines and fees associated with the criminal justice system.

A yearlong NPR investigation found that the costs of the criminal justice system in the United States are paid increasingly by the defendants and offenders. It's a practice that causes the poor to face harsher treatment than others who commit identical crimes and can afford to pay. Some judges and politicians fear the trend has gone too far.
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azgreg said:
They are being jailed because they can't pay the fine. There are also many being incarcerated because they can't pay the additional court fees.

As Court Fees Rise, The Poor Are Paying The Price : NPR
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would there be a fine without the infractions?

would there be tickets if they had kept their car properly licensed?

when does their personal responsibility play into this?

like i said earlier.....you stop this, and it gives anyone who is poor the right to totally disregard the laws of society

insurance? not for me...i'm poor

change in the parking meter? not for me, i'm poor

updated tags on their car, and a safety inspection....not for me, i'm poor

give me a freaking break.....
 
gdgyva said:
would there be a fine without the infractions?

would there be tickets if they had kept their car properly licensed?

when does their personal responsibility play into this?

like i said earlier.....you stop this, and it gives anyone who is poor the right to totally disregard the laws of society

insurance? not for me...i'm poor

change in the parking meter? not for me, i'm poor

updated tags on their car, and a safety inspection....not for me, i'm poor

give me a freaking break.....
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Screw it then. Let's just gas everybody.

Hey you! Jaywalker! Get against the wall and put your hands up! Do you have any last words?
 
azgreg said:
Sure laws are in place for a reason, and some of those reasons are good ones. A traffic violation and failing to pay a fee or fine are victimless. Now if someone commits a traffic violation and it involves damage or injuries to someone else then it no longer is victimless is it. You and ludin need to re-read the OP. You guys are defending an argument that isn't there.
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I don't think you get the point. Failure to pay these tickets for not having the proper paperwork may be "victimless." But in reality one of these dumbasses could hit someone and then their victim is up **** creek. The point is they failed to have the proper documentation, and that documentation is there to protect people from being victims.
 
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