Page 9 of 10 FirstFirst ... 78910 LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 98

Thread: Civil Rights Attorneys Sue Ferguson Over 'Debtors Prisons'

  1. #81
    Dungeon Master
    Chicks dig the long ball

    azgreg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:44 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    14,105

    Re: Civil Rights Attorneys Sue Ferguson Over 'Debtors Prisons'

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleming View Post
    Not paying your taxes is As much a "victimless crime" as not paying your fines.
    Same as drug possession. Shouldn't result in jail time. Penalize them for sure. Work out some kind of payment plan, put them on a work detail to pay off their debt, if receiving benefits withhold a percentage until they're paid up.
    I have CDO, it's like OCD but the letters are in alphabetical order like they should be.

  2. #82
    Student
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Brussels
    Last Seen
    02-12-15 @ 11:45 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    154

    Re: Civil Rights Attorneys Sue Ferguson Over 'Debtors Prisons'

    Quote Originally Posted by azgreg View Post
    Same as drug possession. Shouldn't result in jail time. Penalize them for sure. Work out some kind of payment plan, put them on a work detail to pay off their debt, if receiving benefits withhold a percentage until they're paid up.
    You are entitled to your absolutist position. But I believe few people will agree with you that people who defraud the government of millions of dollars in taxes or launder massive sums of illegal money should under no circumstances face jail.

  3. #83
    Sage

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:40 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    30,583

    Re: Civil Rights Attorneys Sue Ferguson Over 'Debtors Prisons'

    Quote Originally Posted by Paxaeon View Post
    `
    A victimless crime is a phrase used to refer to actions that are by statute, illegal, but which do not directly violate or threaten the rights of any other individual. Piling up fines has no victim.
    how is illegal parking not threatening individuals?
    how is driving without a license and insurance not threatening the others?

    it is. it means you are not responsible enough to drive a car.

    It isn't like this is a one time thing. this person has multiple occurrences of not just traffic violations,
    but driving on suspended licenses and driving without insurance.

    that in and of itself puts the public at large at risk.

  4. #84
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    NE WI.
    Last Seen
    08-30-15 @ 03:41 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    2,029

    Re: Civil Rights Attorneys Sue Ferguson Over 'Debtors Prisons'

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    how is illegal parking not threatening individuals? how is driving without a license and insurance not threatening the others? it is. it means you are not responsible enough to drive a car. It isn't like this is a one time thing. this person has multiple occurrences of not just traffic violations, but driving on suspended licenses and driving without insurance. that in and of itself puts the public at large at risk.
    `
    It's not my definition, it's what the law says. In Bearden v. Georgia, SCOTUS threw out the idea of imprisoning someone because they could not pay a fine. However, they also said this; a judge must first consider whether the defendant has the ability to pay but "willfully" refuses. Since the court did not instruct the judges as to how to define willfully refuses, every judge can make up their own standards on this. If, in a judges opinion, she/he feels a person can pay, but will not, then they can then go to jail....not for an inability to pay but for a "refusal to pay."

    The issue here has nothing to do with a "victimless crime".

  5. #85
    Sage

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:40 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    30,583

    Re: Civil Rights Attorneys Sue Ferguson Over 'Debtors Prisons'

    Quote Originally Posted by Paxaeon View Post
    `
    It's not my definition, it's what the law says. In Bearden v. Georgia, SCOTUS threw out the idea of imprisoning someone because they could not pay a fine. However, they also said this; a judge must first consider whether the defendant has the ability to pay but "willfully" refuses. Since the court did not instruct the judges as to how to define willfully refuses, every judge can make up their own standards on this. If, in a judges opinion, she/he feels a person can pay, but will not, then they can then go to jail....not for an inability to pay but for a "refusal to pay."

    The issue here has nothing to do with a "victimless crime".
    they are not being jailed for not paying a fine what part of that don't you understand?

    they are being taken to jail on contempt of court. or they are being taken to jail for violation of the law.
    it is pretty simple. I have gotten tickets and not going to jail for it.

    ignoring a ticket is the same as not going to court. you get a contempt of court charge and you go to jail.
    that is why she was arrested. it makes it worse if she was driving without a license and knowingly driving without a
    insurance.

  6. #86
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    NE WI.
    Last Seen
    08-30-15 @ 03:41 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    2,029

    Re: Civil Rights Attorneys Sue Ferguson Over 'Debtors Prisons'

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    they are not being jailed for not paying a fine what part of that don't you understand? they are being taken to jail on contempt of court. or they are being taken to jail for violation of the law.
    it is pretty simple. I have gotten tickets and not going to jail for it.gnoring a ticket is the same as not going to court. you get a contempt of court charge and you go to jail. that is why she was arrested. it makes it worse if she was driving without a license and knowingly driving without a insurance.
    `
    I think you're confused. What part of Bearden v. Georgia don't you understand?

    The ACLU is already suing Ferguson based on the Bearden v. Georgia ruling on debtors prison. Nothing to do with violating a judges order, to wit:

    The suit is filed on behalf of 11 plaintiffs who say they were too poor to pay but were then jailed — sometimes for two weeks or more. - Source

  7. #87
    Sage

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:40 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    30,583

    Re: Civil Rights Attorneys Sue Ferguson Over 'Debtors Prisons'

    Quote Originally Posted by Paxaeon View Post
    `
    I think you're confused. What part of Bearden v. Georgia don't you understand?

    The ACLU is already suing Ferguson based on the Bearden v. Georgia ruling on debtors prison. Nothing to do with violating a judges order, to wit:
    what part of this has nothing to do with debtors prison don't you understand. bearden vs Georgia is irrelevant.
    it is a strawman argument.

    they are not going to debtors prison. they are going to prison for breaking the law not once but multiple times.
    they probably have warrents out for their arrest.

    The ACLU has no case in the matter.

  8. #88
    Dungeon Master
    Chicks dig the long ball

    azgreg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:44 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    14,105

    Re: Civil Rights Attorneys Sue Ferguson Over 'Debtors Prisons'

    Quote Originally Posted by Paxaeon View Post
    `
    I think you're confused. What part of Bearden v. Georgia don't you understand?

    The ACLU is already suing Ferguson based on the Bearden v. Georgia ruling on debtors prison. Nothing to do with violating a judges order, to wit:
    He doesn't understand any of it and never will.

    https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/461/660/

    (a)If a State determines a fine or restitution to be the appropriate and adequate penalty for the crime, it may not thereafter imprison a person solely because he lacked the resources to pay it. Williams v. Illinois,399 U. S. 235; Tate v. Short,401 U. S. 395. If the probationer has willfully refused to pay the fine or restitution when he has the resources to pay or has failed to make sufficient bona fide efforts to seek employment or borrow money to pay, the State is justified in using imprisonment as a sanction to enforce collection. But if the probationer has made all reasonable bona fide efforts to pay the fine and yet cannot do so through no fault of his own, it is fundamentally unfair to revoke probation automatically without considering whether adequate alternative methods of punishing

    the probationer are available to meet the State's interest in punishment and deterrence. Pp. 461 U. S. 664-669.

    (b) The State may not use as the sole justification for imprisonment the poverty or inability of the probationer to pay the fine and to make restitution if he has demonstrated sufficient bona fide efforts to do so. Pp. 461 U. S. 669-672.

    (c) Only if alternative measure of punishment are not adequate to meet the State's interests in punishment and deterrence may the court imprison a probationer who has made sufficient bona fide efforts to pay the fine. To do otherwise would deprive the probationer of his conditional freedom simply because, through no fault of his own, he cannot pay. Such a deprivation would be contrary to the fundamental fairness required by the Fourteenth Amendment. Pp. 461 U. S. 672-673.
    I have CDO, it's like OCD but the letters are in alphabetical order like they should be.

  9. #89
    Dungeon Master
    Chicks dig the long ball

    azgreg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:44 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    14,105

    Re: Civil Rights Attorneys Sue Ferguson Over 'Debtors Prisons'

    With all the above being said if it's determined that the defendant just plain refuses to pay than all bets are off, he/she gets what they get.
    I have CDO, it's like OCD but the letters are in alphabetical order like they should be.

  10. #90
    Student
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Brussels
    Last Seen
    02-12-15 @ 11:45 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    154

    Re: Civil Rights Attorneys Sue Ferguson Over 'Debtors Prisons'

    Quote Originally Posted by azgreg View Post
    With all the above being said if it's determined that the defendant just plain refuses to pay than all bets are off, he/she gets what they get.
    I think you've got that backwards: only if it can be shown that the person in question has made all efforts to be able to pay the fine he or she cannot be imprisoned.

Page 9 of 10 FirstFirst ... 78910 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •