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Thread: Consumer Protection Agency Seeks Limits on Payday Lenders

  1. #331
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    Re: Consumer Protection Agency Seeks Limits on Payday Lenders

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Morning Cephus....Really? I don't recall seeing my name in the OP...All I am doing is debating on a message board about a business that I feel is highly unethical. I don't see where that means that I personally have to have the entire solution worked out...
    But you're complaining in this thread that the payday loan industry needs to be stopped from "abusing" people. Therefore, you have to have a better solution. Let's hear it. If all of these stores were to vanish tomorrow, what then? The people using them still need the money. How do you propose they get it? Liberal whiners, I understand, they just want the government to pass out even more checks so they can buy votes. What's your excuse?

    But, I will say I do agree with some of the points that you and Tres lay out, they are valid...Such as no one forcing these people to take out the loans...That is a good point and I am hesitant to get into the business of 'saving people from themselves', however, I just don't like these places...
    Who cares what you like? If this is just some kind of emotional reaction, you're doing it wrong. You need to identify a real problem and come up with a real solution. So far, you've done neither. You just don't like it. Too bad.

    "People who use payday loans are struggling financially, and they usually have trouble covering ordinary livingexpenses from month to month. Most are paying bank overdraft fees, most carry credit card or other debt, andalmost all have credit scores that are at the lowest end of the scale.
    Of course they are struggling financially, that's why they need the money! These people are financially irresponsible, that's why they're in the mess that they're in. Now while, in a perfect world, they'd just clean up their lives and live within their means, we know that's not going to happen in the short term, not unless you have a magic wand you've been keeping secret. For all of the "should be" wishful thinking we come up with, the fact is, these people have no other options and you want to take away the only option they have because you "don't like it".

    Policy discussion in recent years has focusedon whether payday loan customers need more access to credit, and what rate of interest is appropriate for such loans. These are valid questions, but there is insufficient evidence to know whether consumers are better off with or without access to high-interest loans (even if the loans have affordable payments).
    They had access to credit, they ruined it. They bounced checks. They didn't pay back loans. They ignored credit card payments. What makes you think that, if given the chance again, they wouldn't do the exact same thing again? Interest rates are based on risk and these people, because of their own actions, are extremely risky. They get high rates of interest because they EARN high rates of interest. It is a massive risk to place every single dollar in their hands. Anyone who doesn't understand that doesn't get basic economics.

    There is, however, sufficient evidence to conclude that conventional lump-sum payday loans harm consumers compared with loans that have affordable payments. It is clear that the lump-sum payday loan has inherent structural flaws that make it unaffordable and dangerous for consumers, and that new policies to eliminate this failed product are warranted."
    They don't qualify for loans with affordable payments, that's why they're getting payday loans. They default on even these loans with great regularity, yet now you want to give them something better that they will equally default on? Are you crazy?

    that's debatable...Many, in fact I would say most don't fully understand how to budget, and spend day to day, therefore, understanding the long term effect on their bills is not too much of a thought at the time of taking out these products.
    I know they don't understand these things, that's why they're in the situation they're in. Unless you want to mandate financial training for all of them, and who is going to pay for that, then I don't see where you're going to fix the problem. I know that the place I helped set up, we had a referral to low-cost financial counseling that virtually nobody ever took advantage of. They not only don't know how to do it, they don't care to learn.

    that is true, and I am conflicted about my own position on this, but in the end I stand on ethical practices, and this industry is void of ethics. I know first hand.
    Apparently not because I know first hand that it isn't. There may absolutely be some fraud, just like there is in the pawn shop industry, but that doesn't make the whole industry rife with fraud. Maybe you need some better experience.
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  2. #332
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    Re: Consumer Protection Agency Seeks Limits on Payday Lenders

    cont.

    All I can say is that if I were ever in that position (again) I would hope that someone would help me ward against people, con men really, out to drop the anvil on my head...
    You're the one who chose to go there without researching. You're the one who apparently didn't keep up your end of the bargain. Now you're blaming the industry for your own failures? Seriously?

    Are you in the business Cephus? I just wonder. Because, although my arguments in here are often on the political right because I am a believer in personal responsibility, but, and this is about the only but, when I see clear advantage being cast on one group of people with little resource to correct the problem, I think it is a horribly unethical thing to do....But, I do want to say that I don't have good answers on how to fix it, I just know that it is destructive.
    No, but I did set up a payday advance place, I have seen the industry from the inside, I have dealt directly with many customers who come to such places and not a single one ever gets into it unknowingly. There is a distinct code of ethics in place, at least in my experience, but you have to deal with the realities. For every customer who comes in and rolls over a loan, the choice is between rolling it over and having the customer go into default and just not pay it back at all. It is a lie, at least in my experience, that payday places push customers to roll over loans. They do not. It's a matter of desperation, not of business design. The fact is, once the client has your money in hand, they have all of the power. There is virtually no legal recourse because these people have no money. Suing them is going to be an automatic victory for the store owner. Collecting on that judgement is virtually impossible. Again, what is your solution? You have none. You've just got an emotional grudge and that's no way to run public policy.
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  3. #333
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    Re: Consumer Protection Agency Seeks Limits on Payday Lenders

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    cont.



    You're the one who chose to go there without researching. You're the one who apparently didn't keep up your end of the bargain. Now you're blaming the industry for your own failures? Seriously?



    No, but I did set up a payday advance place, I have seen the industry from the inside, I have dealt directly with many customers who come to such places and not a single one ever gets into it unknowingly. There is a distinct code of ethics in place, at least in my experience, but you have to deal with the realities. For every customer who comes in and rolls over a loan, the choice is between rolling it over and having the customer go into default and just not pay it back at all. It is a lie, at least in my experience, that payday places push customers to roll over loans. They do not. It's a matter of desperation, not of business design. The fact is, once the client has your money in hand, they have all of the power. There is virtually no legal recourse because these people have no money. Suing them is going to be an automatic victory for the store owner. Collecting on that judgement is virtually impossible. Again, what is your solution? You have none. You've just got an emotional grudge and that's no way to run public policy.
    That's right Cephus, at one time in my life I was pretty irresponsible with money. I didn't make enough and made poor decisions with credit, along with being young and partying too much. That took us into bankruptcy. We lost everything.

    Since, I was at least smart enough to get the counsel of a family member that woke me up, and after some real pain and ten years we built back up to a 750+ score and own a home and have savings.

    Not everyone has that family to fall back on. Nor, do they wake the hell up. All I can tell you is my experience. No one ever offered the option to pay back the loan in three payments, and they absolutey did consistently offer roll over to distressed situations. I didn't find out about extended payback until my wife worked at one.

    So, you helpwd set one up. I hope you made a handsome profit.

    Now you can continue to attack me personally, or we can have a conversation. Which is it?
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  4. #334
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    Re: Consumer Protection Agency Seeks Limits on Payday Lenders

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    That's right Cephus, at one time in my life I was pretty irresponsible with money. I didn't make enough and made poor decisions with credit, along with being young and partying too much. That took us into bankruptcy. We lost everything.
    That's a shame. People make mistakes. People also need to be responsible for fixing those mistakes. That's what conservatism is all about: personal responsibility. It's a shame how many people don't understand that.

    Since, I was at least smart enough to get the counsel of a family member that woke me up, and after some real pain and ten years we built back up to a 750+ score and own a home and have savings.
    There are plenty of people out there who can counsel you, it doesn't have to be family. In the low income areas, there are plenty of free-of-charge credit counseling places available that people can utilize if they wish. If they don't, it's their own fault. Personal responsibility.

    Not everyone has that family to fall back on. Nor, do they wake the hell up. All I can tell you is my experience. No one ever offered the option to pay back the loan in three payments, and they absolutey did consistently offer roll over to distressed situations. I didn't find out about extended payback until my wife worked at one.
    Which doesn't matter, there are plenty of options. And your experience doesn't mean a damn thing when it comes to overall reality. What happened to you, happened to you. You got out of it. It was your job to get out of it. Personal responsibility. What it seems is that you're assuming that people are too stupid to get out of things on their own or to figure out how to fix their own problems, with or without help. That's entirely defeatist and antithetical to the conservative philosophy. Just because you had a particular experience doesn't mean that all experiences are the same. You're making assumptions about a nationwide industry based on a single experience you had a long time ago.

    So, you helpwd set one up. I hope you made a handsome profit.
    Nope, in fact these places make very little profit. I got paid a consulting fee, nothing more.

    Now you can continue to attack me personally, or we can have a conversation. Which is it?
    Nobody is attacking you personally, I'm pointing out that you are acting in a very non-conservative manner, demanding that the state fix problems that you perceive, yet cannot demonstrate actually happen. You are basing it all on a single personal experience and are reacting entirely emotionally. Then you're taking all questions as personal attacks. That is not rational. It is not possible to have a valid discussion with irrational people. So make up your mind, are you just going to react, or are you going to think too?
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  5. #335
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    Re: Consumer Protection Agency Seeks Limits on Payday Lenders

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That's a shame. People make mistakes. People also need to be responsible for fixing those mistakes. That's what conservatism is all about: personal responsibility.
    No longer true (if it ever was). Today's self-styled conservatives believe that personal responsibility is for everyone but themselves. Their actions speak far louder than your words.

    Did any conservatives make a peep when the heads of the nation's banks and corporations testified about their role in the 2008 collapse and said "mistakes were made," without naming anything for which they were personally at fault?
    I fight against the ignorant, irresponsible, and/or closed-minded.
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  6. #336
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    Re: Consumer Protection Agency Seeks Limits on Payday Lenders

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That's a shame. People make mistakes. People also need to be responsible for fixing those mistakes. That's what conservatism is all about: personal responsibility. It's a shame how many people don't understand that.
    Absolutely. I agree with that 100%

    There are plenty of people out there who can counsel you, it doesn't have to be family. In the low income areas, there are plenty of free-of-charge credit counseling places available that people can utilize if they wish. If they don't, it's their own fault. Personal responsibility.
    There are many fraudulent counseling services out there as well...Consider this from the MN atty Gen.

    "There are many fraudulent companies seeking to exploit the fact that many consumers are having a difficult time with credit card bills. These companies make unsolicited phone calls to consumers promising to help lower their interest rates or find them better deals. The companies often require the consumer to pay high up-front fees of as much as $2,000 or more. Once the consumer pays the money, however, the companies often fail to deliver the promised services. The end result: the consumer now is $2,000 more in the hole. Remember: there is no easy way to lower your interest rates or get out of debt. Beware of companies that call you up and promise they have “insider secrets” on how to lower your credit card interest rates."

    Debt Assistance Scams | The Office of Attorney General Lori Swanson

    Ultimately, after the person is dug further into the hole, they hopefully realize as I did that it is up to them to get out of that hole. Often the only recourse is filing bankruptcy. So, is that a good thing? There were almost a million filings in 2014, what effect does that have on our economy?

    http://www.uscourts.gov/uscourts/Sta...14/1214_f2.pdf

    Which doesn't matter, there are plenty of options. And your experience doesn't mean a damn thing when it comes to overall reality. What happened to you, happened to you. You got out of it. It was your job to get out of it. Personal responsibility. What it seems is that you're assuming that people are too stupid to get out of things on their own or to figure out how to fix their own problems, with or without help. That's entirely defeatist and antithetical to the conservative philosophy. Just because you had a particular experience doesn't mean that all experiences are the same. You're making assumptions about a nationwide industry based on a single experience you had a long time ago.
    Yep, what happened to me was my fault, and thankfully I was able to dig back out. Many don't. And It may be defeatist, as you say, but numbers don't lie, and a million bankruptcy's in 2014 tell the story. That you think I can't be a conservative, and see an unethical business model and speak out against it I am sure you will say is not attacking me personally, but I am equally sure you aren't speaking to those that agree with you on this topic with questioning their conservative creds...But you are right about one thing, MY experience isn't the same as others...Many others are worse. And I am not making assumptions anymore than you are...You consulted on an advance place, my wife worked for one....Problem is, you discount my experience with these places coming from the position of a paid advocate of these places....I gave you PEW, you give me derision.

    Nope, in fact these places make very little profit. I got paid a consulting fee, nothing more.
    You're right....I looked it up, many places make between 5% and 13%....Not outrageous....

    Nobody is attacking you personally, I'm pointing out that you are acting in a very non-conservative manner, demanding that the state fix problems that you perceive, yet cannot demonstrate actually happen.
    I have said in this thread from the start that I realize that taking the stance on Payday lenders as I do, will not win me conservative points. I try to look at things individually in here. You should do the same....I am pretty sure though that telling me that I am acting in "a very non conservative manner'' is the definition of attacking me, instead of addressing my argument with facts...I've provided you several links pointing to my argument, what have you given me? I don't see a single link from you.

    You are basing it all on a single personal experience and are reacting entirely emotionally.
    Nope...How many times do I have to tell you that my wife worked for one for you to stop deflecting?

    Then you're taking all questions as personal attacks.
    Not all of them, just the ones that are.

    That is not rational. It is not possible to have a valid discussion with irrational people. So make up your mind, are you just going to react, or are you going to think too?
    Like that.
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  7. #337
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    Re: Consumer Protection Agency Seeks Limits on Payday Lenders

    Quote Originally Posted by DifferentDrummr View Post
    No longer true (if it ever was). Today's self-styled conservatives believe that personal responsibility is for everyone but themselves. Their actions speak far louder than your words.

    Did any conservatives make a peep when the heads of the nation's banks and corporations testified about their role in the 2008 collapse and said "mistakes were made," without naming anything for which they were personally at fault?
    Yep, plenty....
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  8. #338
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    Re: Consumer Protection Agency Seeks Limits on Payday Lenders

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    For people with bad credit, no collateral, needing money in an emergency, they serve a purpose.
    True. I don't see a need to abolish them but the 400% plus interest rates need to be put to check.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
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  9. #339
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    Re: Consumer Protection Agency Seeks Limits on Payday Lenders

    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    True. I don't see a need to abolish them but the 400% plus interest rates need to be put to check.
    Morning Rob...I think to be fair, Tres, and Cephus make a fair point that the original loan typically for a two week period is written for interest of $15 per $100 borrowed, So in a monthly model assuming that the original $100 is rolled over one time, that would equal an interest rate of 30% on that $100. Not horrible for someone with destroyed credit to get money lent to them. However, where I have a problem, is with the qualification process, and with the disclosure on how to get out of the loan. Also, I don't any longer think that abolishing this type of service to poor communities is a bad thing, but I do still think that the number of "roll overs" per se needs to be addressed.
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    Re: Consumer Protection Agency Seeks Limits on Payday Lenders

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Morning Rob...I think to be fair, Tres, and Cephus make a fair point that the original loan typically for a two week period is written for interest of $15 per $100 borrowed, So in a monthly model assuming that the original $100 is rolled over one time, that would equal an interest rate of 30% on that $100. Not horrible for someone with destroyed credit to get money lent to them. However, where I have a problem, is with the qualification process, and with the disclosure on how to get out of the loan. Also, I don't any longer think that abolishing this type of service to poor communities is a bad thing, but I do still think that the number of "roll overs" per se needs to be addressed.
    Well said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The sad fact is that having a pedophile win is better than having a Democrat in office. I'm all for a solution where a Republican gets in that isn't Moore.

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