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Obama condemns those who seek to 'hijack religion'

If the enemy is not Islam, why would you intentionally antagonize them? There are 1.6 Billion Muslims world wide and something like half of them are devout fundamentalists. Currently fundamentalist Sunni's and fundamentalist Shiites have joined together to fight ISIS. Lumping the people fighting on our side with the people fighting against us is silly.


It isn't that simple...If we are to use your number here, half are, and half aren't radicalized, it sure doesn't show with the either lack of speaking out, or at best weak denunciation of atrocities when they happen, leads me to believe that more are in agreement with the radicals than not, and the leaders surely are saying one thing to our face, and practicing another behind our backs through their support.

And this idea that we're pretending that they're not Islamic extremists is ridiculous. Have you noticed that we were aware of every single one of the terrorists like the Boston bombers. Why? Because we watch all the Islamic extremists. We know the people that are most likely to strike against us.

Are you kidding here? Really? you don't remember this type of thing just a few short weeks ago....

Obama proclaims: 'We are not at war with Islam' - CNN.com
 
It isn't that simple...If we are to use your number here, half are, and half aren't radicalized, it sure doesn't show with the either lack of speaking out, or at best weak denunciation of atrocities when they happen, leads me to believe that more are in agreement with the radicals than not, and the leaders surely are saying one thing to our face, and practicing another behind our backs through their support.



Are you kidding here? Really? you don't remember this type of thing just a few short weeks ago....

Obama proclaims: 'We are not at war with Islam' - CNN.com

Understand that there is a vast difference between what you do and what you say. It's like dogs and barking. Big dogs don't have to bark to get respect. Little dogs bark all of the time to try and get respect, but only end up annoying everyone.

The Administration is well aware that the terrorists come from Islamic Fundamentalists who have been radicalised. So that's who they pay attention to. It's not some revelation that they're all Islamic. But serious people realize that the real war against terrorism is fought in the space between Islamic Fundamentalists and Islamic Extremists. ISIS realizes this as well. If ISIS can recruit more Islamic Fundamentalists than we kill, they win. If we can cut-off the source of their recruits we win.

ISIS's goal is to make this fight about religion. Something like 1 of every 10 people on this planet sympathize in some way with many of ISIS's beliefs. That's a huge pool of people they can recruit from. ISIS would love to recruit them to it's side. That's why they're trying to goad everyone into fighting a holy war against them. They only need fractions of a percent of all fundamentalist muslims to join their side for them to effectively win the middle east.

What I can't understand is why you seem to want to help ISIS get what they want. Is it because you're viewing these events through a Christian prism? Do you think that fighting against Islam because it's "false" is a good thing? The only way to promote stability in the region and to defeat ISIS is to join a unified front of Muslims who stand against ISIS. Right now that's what's happening. Saying that we're fighting Islam ruins that and all but guarantees ISIS domination.
 
Understand that there is a vast difference between what you do and what you say. It's like dogs and barking. Big dogs don't have to bark to get respect. Little dogs bark all of the time to try and get respect, but only end up annoying everyone.

Morning Mithros, Maybe there is a 'vast difference' in what YOU do and what YOU say, but don't project that shortfall on me....I try keeping my word. It's called integrity. Concerning ISIS, it seems that they are doing exactly what they say they will. In fact, that's the whole problem with this whole thing. In some respects we have projected our values onto our enemies, and instead of listening to what their stated goals are. They are telling us what they want, we just don't listen.

The Administration is well aware that the terrorists come from Islamic Fundamentalists who have been radicalised. So that's who they pay attention to. It's not some revelation that they're all Islamic. But serious people realize that the real war against terrorism is fought in the space between Islamic Fundamentalists and Islamic Extremists. ISIS realizes this as well. If ISIS can recruit more Islamic Fundamentalists than we kill, they win. If we can cut-off the source of their recruits we win.

Aw, here we go....Now we are going to play word salad, trying too hard by half in figuring out what to do about these pieces of trash. We are losing this from our current approach of leading from behind. Nothing less. Plus the fact that none of these governments over there are willing to step up and take on the problem themselves...At some point we have to take this on seriously in our interests.

ISIS's goal is to make this fight about religion. Something like 1 of every 10 people on this planet sympathize in some way with many of ISIS's beliefs. That's a huge pool of people they can recruit from. ISIS would love to recruit them to it's side. That's why they're trying to goad everyone into fighting a holy war against them. They only need fractions of a percent of all fundamentalist muslims to join their side for them to effectively win the middle east.

And our response is to let it happen? You see that as a good thing?

What I can't understand is why you seem to want to help ISIS get what they want. Is it because you're viewing these events through a Christian prism? Do you think that fighting against Islam because it's "false" is a good thing? The only way to promote stability in the region and to defeat ISIS is to join a unified front of Muslims who stand against ISIS. Right now that's what's happening. Saying that we're fighting Islam ruins that and all but guarantees ISIS domination.

Sticking our heads in the sand is not going to make it go away...As for it being false, I am not so sure it is...Islam after all is a religion built on murder, and conquest. They are in effect a sort of anti religion.
 
If the enemy is not Islam, why would you intentionally antagonize them?
Why are you so worried? When the democracies went to war against the Japanese they were called, and the Germans were called Germans, or Nazis. But somehow mentioning Islamic terrorists is different? You seem to believe that Muslims don't understand the difference between Islamic Terrorists and regular Muslims, which would be an insult to every Muslim. I knw of no other situation where anyone would be offended by the term Christian, Jewish, atheist or Hindu terrorist but somehow these child-like Muslims need protection from words or their sensibilities will suffer. BH Obama is a fool, and internationally recognized as such. You needn't parrot whatever this buff on claims.

There are 1.6 Billion Muslims world wide and something like half of them are devout fundamentalists. Currently fundamentalist Sunni's and fundamentalist Shiites have joined together to fight ISIS. Lumping the people fighting on our side with the people fighting against us is silly.
They are still Muslims. Try to get over it.


And this idea that we're pretending that they're not Islamic extremists is ridiculous. Have you noticed that we were aware of every single one of the terrorists like the Boston bombers. Why? Because we watch all the Islamic extremists. We know the people that are most likely to strike against us.
Good to see you can use 'Islamist Extremists" in a sentence. That's something even the most powerful citizen in the USA can't do.

Publicly making statements against Islam is counterproductive, irresponsible, and is giving aid and comfort to our enemies.
Giving aid? How so?
 
It isn't that simple...If we are to use your number here, half are, and half aren't radicalized, it sure doesn't show with the either lack of speaking out, or at best weak denunciation of atrocities when they happen, leads me to believe that more are in agreement with the radicals than not, and the leaders surely are saying one thing to our face, and practicing another behind our backs through their support.

Obama proclaims: 'We are not at war with Islam' - CNN.com

Right, so instead of condemning all of them, we should target only the culprits. One way to do that is through journalism. See our journalist Arbana Xharra for an example how she exposed the arrival of extremist Islamists to Dardania through post war NGO's and influencing the poorest, weakest, most existentially lost members to join their extreme Islamist ranks.

Fissures in the Faith: Rise of Conservative Islamists Alarms Kosovans :: Balkan Insight

She was awarded the international "Woman of Courage" just recently :cool:

In Dardania, where might once claimed to make right, Arbana Xharra dedicated her career as a journalist to exposing corruption, shedding light on graft, and changing society peacefully and without strife. Arbana has reported on religious extremism, linking local imams and NGOs with foreign terrorist organizations. Her words have prompted the government to address problems from extremism to corruption. Like other women on this stage today, Arbana faced death threats for her work. But as editor-in-chief of one of Dardania’s leading daily newspapers, Arbana still pursues stories wherever they lead, despite its peril, while passing on her legacy to the next generation of writers.

For her unwavering pursuit of truth in the fight against violent extremism, we honor Arbana Xharra as a woman of courage. (Applause.)

Remarks at the International Women of Courage Ceremony
 
Why are you so worried? When the democracies went to war against the Japanese they were called, and the Germans were called Germans, or Nazis. But somehow mentioning Islamic terrorists is different?

We didn't call the Germans "Christian Radicals" and we didn't call the Japanese "Shinto Terrorists." We call the people we are fighting by their political designation and that's why we call them ISIS or ISIL. We don't nominally single out the dominant religion of the group because war and terrorism are not spiritual acts (i.e., acts of religion). They are, by definition, political acts.

You seem to believe that Muslims don't understand the difference between Islamic Terrorists and regular Muslims, which would be an insult to every Muslim. I knw of no other situation where anyone would be offended by the term Christian, Jewish, atheist or Hindu terrorist but somehow these child-like Muslims need protection from words or their sensibilities will suffer. BH Obama is a fool, and internationally recognized as such. You needn't parrot whatever this buff on claims.?

You seem to believe that it is necessary to attack a religion when the religion is not the problem. The problem is the people who are using religion as a pretext for a power grab. You also seem to have an opinion of Obama that would prevent you from being able to objectively analyze anything he says.

Giving aid? How so?

So, you think that if Obama got up and said "The US is at war with Islam" that would be a good thing?
 
We didn't call the Germans "Christian Radicals" and we didn't call the Japanese "Shinto Terrorists."
And do you understand the reason for that? It wasn't Shinto that bound these people together, nor was it Christianity.
We call the people we are fighting by their political designation and that's why we call them ISIS or ISIL. We don't nominally single out the dominant religion of the group because war and terrorism are not spiritual acts (i.e., acts of religion). They are, by definition, political acts.
That is no definition at all and, what's more, Islam is political as well as religious system, as any Islamic scholar will tell you..
You seem to believe that it is necessary to attack a religion when the religion is not the problem.
Au contraire. The religion of Islam is the problem. It is the most backward of the major religions and more evidence of this is presented each day.
The problem is the people who are using religion as a pretext for a power grab
And the writings allow and encourage that power grab. That's the problem.
You also seem to have an opinion of Obama that would prevent you from being able to objectively analyze anything he says.
Obama is a fool. And please don't guess at my opinions.
 
And do you understand the reason for that? It wasn't Shinto that bound these people together, nor was it Christianity.

And you understand why Obama pointed out that people who do despicable things in the name of religion should not cause a blanket denunciation of the religion? Just like we should not denounce Christianity just because some people did (and do) really bad things in the name the Christian God.


That is no definition at all and, what's more, Islam is political as well as religious system, as any Islamic scholar will tell you..

I think that the scholar will tell you that Sharia is the law that is nominally derived from the Quran which provides guidance that is similar to what you find in the Bible, especially Leviticus.

Au contraire. The religion of Islam is the problem. It is the most backward of the major religions and more evidence of this is presented each day.And the writings allow and encourage that power grab. That's the problem.

What one should recognize is that, even though Christianity and Islam are equally backwards, Christianity is practiced in more advanced countries that aren't quite as tribal.

The Koran does not encourage any "power grab." The Koran teaches tolerance. The problem is, there are religious zealots in all religions who will pervert the meaning of the religious scriptures to meet their own needs. Christians do that in the US when they Bible thump about abortion, gay rights, and a host of other things. Religious leaders have always interpreted the scripture to support expanding the faith, by force if necessary, because that is increases their power. Political leaders have also used scripture to justify power grabs.

Moses is a prophet in both the Christian and Islamic faiths. Moses was given the 10 commandments. One of them is "Thou shalt not kill." That's pretty clear and supported by both the Bible and the Quran. The exception is that people are allowed to protect themselves in times of war. We find that in I Samuel 15:3 or in Quran 8:12. The people who want to make a case for the Quran condoning indiscriminate killing of infidels will take text out of context (much as people take Biblical verses out of context to "prove" a point).


Obama is a fool. And please don't guess at my opinions.

I didn't guess at your opinion, you stated it. When you state that you have a bias, am I to disregard that and believe that you don't have a bias?
 
And you understand why Obama pointed out that people who do despicable things in the name of religion should not cause a blanket denunciation of the religion?
That's why we should call them Islamist extremists or radicals rather than just Muslims. It is Muslims who are committing terrorism throughout the world so wouldn't it make sense to call them 'extreme' rather than just 'Muslim"?
Just like we should not denounce Christianity just because some people did (and do) really bad things in the name the Christian God.
In fact if there were Christians murdering, torturing and raping throughout the world I think we could safely call them 'Christian extremists'. Why not?
I think that the scholar will tell you that Sharia is the law that is nominally derived from the Quran.
That's what makes it political.
What one should recognize is that, even though Christianity and Islam are equally backwards, Christianity is practiced in more advanced countries that aren't quite as tribal.
Yes, those who live in Christian countries are much more advanced than those forced to live under Islam. There is no doubt about that. Those in Israel as well. And Japan.
The Koran does not encourage any "power grab." The Koran teaches tolerance.
It also teaches intolerance and forced conversions..
The problem is, there are religious zealots in all religions who will pervert the meaning of the religious scriptures to meet their own needs.
But ALL religions are not murdering, raping and terrorizing throughout the world. Just Muslims.
 
You really don't see the problem with excusing what is going on today with ISIS, to that of events of 500 and 800 years ago? Really?

Is anyone excusing what's happening today? Well, other than crazy liberals. What I see is the acknowledgement that Islam is absolutely no worse than Christianity was a couple of hundred years ago. One religion isn't inherently better than the other, which a lot of Christians are claiming. In fact, they're arguing that Christianity is better because Christians aren't being animals today, preferring to pretend and make excuses about their behavior in the past.

All religions suck. Islam just sucks a lot more right now. That doesn't excuse any of the rest of them.
 
It isn't that simple...If we are to use your number here, half are, and half aren't radicalized, it sure doesn't show with the either lack of speaking out, or at best weak denunciation of atrocities when they happen, leads me to believe that more are in agreement with the radicals than not, and the leaders surely are saying one thing to our face, and practicing another behind our backs through their support.



Are you kidding here? Really? you don't remember this type of thing just a few short weeks ago....

Obama proclaims: 'We are not at war with Islam' - CNN.com

We're not at war with Islam. Is it being truthful that bothers you guys?

Now before you go down the wrong track here, the extremist profess being Muslim. That doesn't make the entire religion what we're fighting. Obama rightly makes the proper distinction.
 
We're not at war with Islam. Is it being truthful that bothers you guys?

Now before you go down the wrong track here, the extremist profess being Muslim. That doesn't make the entire religion what we're fighting. Obama rightly makes the proper distinction.

We are not at war with all of Islam. We are at war with a particular sub-division of Islam. There are people who point to their particular version of Islam as the sole motivation for fighting. People who can't understand the fact that fighting against extremist Islam isn't the same as fighting against all of Islam have problems.
 
You are right, it is not false. However, we need to be careful about mixing religion with politics.
"We"? Are you a Muslim? It is Muslims who are 'mixing religion with politics' as instructed in the Koran. Look at any Muslim state and you'll see the mix for yourself.
For example, I found it particularly disturbing when on the death of bin Laden, Obama appeared to indicate that the U.S. could do such things because we are one nation under God. I did not like that at all. And another example, it is said that George W Bush said God told him to go fight terrorists and get the Palestinians a state. While it may have been necessary to do those things, it is offensive AND DANGEROUS to bring God into the matter in such a political way.
Use direct quotes whenever you can.
 
"We"? Are you a Muslim? It is Muslims who are 'mixing religion with politics' as instructed in the Koran. Look at any Muslim state and you'll see the mix for yourself.

Muslims are not the only people that do that.
 
Is there any democracy similar to any Muslim dominated country?

Pakistan and Israel are similar, tho not exactly the same.
 
Then quote a reliable source and we'll deal with it. Otherwise you're just blowing smoke.

No, I was answering a remark. If you read it all, you'll see the connection.
 
Right, so instead of condemning all of them, we should target only the culprits. One way to do that is through journalism. See our journalist Arbana Xharra for an example how she exposed the arrival of extremist Islamists to Dardania through post war NGO's and influencing the poorest, weakest, most existentially lost members to join their extreme Islamist ranks.

Fissures in the Faith: Rise of Conservative Islamists Alarms Kosovans :: Balkan Insight

She was awarded the international "Woman of Courage" just recently :cool:



Remarks at the International Women of Courage Ceremony

That's nice, but it is only one tool in war....And let us not forget that the terrorists are masters of Propaganda as well.
 
That's nice, but it is only one tool in war....And let us not forget that the terrorists are masters of Propaganda as well.

When faced with polar journalistic positions I always suggest people to use their own critical thinking skills.
 
Morning Mithros, Maybe there is a 'vast difference' in what YOU do and what YOU say, but don't project that shortfall on me....I try keeping my word. It's called integrity. Concerning ISIS, it seems that they are doing exactly what they say they will. In fact, that's the whole problem with this whole thing. In some respects we have projected our values onto our enemies, and instead of listening to what their stated goals are. They are telling us what they want, we just don't listen.



Aw, here we go....Now we are going to play word salad, trying too hard by half in figuring out what to do about these pieces of trash. We are losing this from our current approach of leading from behind. Nothing less. Plus the fact that none of these governments over there are willing to step up and take on the problem themselves...At some point we have to take this on seriously in our interests.



And our response is to let it happen? You see that as a good thing?



Sticking our heads in the sand is not going to make it go away...As for it being false, I am not so sure it is...Islam after all is a religion built on murder, and conquest. They are in effect a sort of anti religion.

Morning!

Just to again point out, I don't think that we should stick our head in the sand. I think that we need to fight ISIS with every available weapon. And our greatest weapon is to drive a clear wedge between Islam and ISIS. By doing that, we provide the political cover to the Islamic powers in the region to also fight ISIS.

As to the point about Islam being a religion based on murder and conquest, sure it's been that. It's also been the center of culture, tolerance, and intellectualism. Islam is a Canaanite religion; hence the violence and xenophobia. This is where we get the parts of the Bible we generally ignore now; eg the genocide of the Ammonites (Deut 3:24), the murder of everyone in a city if worshippers of another god are found there (Deut 13:15) and many many more.

It's pretty easy to go back through Jewish, Islamic, and Christian history and find all sorts of terrible things done in the name of those religions. It's also possible to find all sorts of amazing things that have been done in the name of that religion. Take Christianity. On one hand we have the Crusades, the Inquisition, the witch hunts, hundreds of years of wars between Catholics and Protestants, etc.. On the other hand we have Trappist ales. So on the whole..Christianity is probably a net win.

The point is that declaring war on a religion doesn't work. It's like putting water on an oil fire. Force doesn't convince people that their way is wrong, it reinforces their resolve to fight. This isn't about ISIS, it's about the rest of the Islamic world. ISIS is going to fight to the death, and the Administration is working to oblige.

Only a fool fights more people than they have to. This is about the people who are sympathetic to ISIS, but don't approve of their methods. And there are a TON of them. If we drive them towards ISIS then we will create a permanent Islamic Extremist base in the region. If we accept them and encourage the voices of moderation then we will cut off ISIS's source of recruits. We can then purge their cancer from the region.
 
Pakistan and Israel are similar??? It must be the science. Or the Nobel Prizes. Or the democracy.

That really is a first!

You asked for a democracy, I gave you one.
 
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