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Obama condemns those who seek to 'hijack religion'

Jetboogieman said:
Dude you have repeatedly shown a complete disregard for historical accuracy so don't come in here on a high horse.
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Another 'high horse' reference? You really admire Barry, don't you?

Maybe you can do another 5 second google search to extremist far right wing websites to prove me wrong....
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Another senseless remark.
 
Grant said:
Don't know much about hisssstory....
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Or you can address what I said. Or you can be the usual Grant and run away with a bs one-off post like this one I quoted.
 
j-mac said:
And you do a pretty fair job of deflecting the debate and making it about me rather than addressing the issue.
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Yo, kettle, do you read what you write? :lamo
 
j-mac said:
I searched two pages of the BN forum, and couldn't find this story anywhere, and my apologies if it was already posted...But, come on folks....Give me a damned break! :doh This would be like Churchill during WWII telling us that although the Nazi's were bad, that maybe they were justified for what the Moore's did centuries earlier....It's a load of crap!

There is no equivalency....It's a false narrative that once again leads some to believe that Obama protects, and runs cover for terrorists.
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No, its more like saying that all Christians should not be blamed for the acts of Nazis and the Nazi's version of Christianity is not typical of Christians.

After the war, if not before, it was widely recognized that the Allies unfair treatment of the Germans after WWI created the conditions that led to Germany's economic instability and the resulting rise of Nazism. In recognition of that, they helped with Germany's recovery and did not steal their territory. It did not mean that the Nazis actions were excused.
 
poweRob said:
Or you can address what I said. Or you can be the usual Grant and run away with a bs one-off post like this one I quoted.
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I'd be happy to respond but what "30 years war" are you talking about "which was Catholics going after protestants in central Europe" and "that itself was 7.5 million on the low end"?
 
Boo Radley said:
Yo, kettle, do you read what you write? :lamo
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Yeah, we have known each other so long that I guess some of that is inevitable. However, as you portray yourself to be the more measured one, you'd think that you would want to be the bigger person. I guess not....:coffeepap:
 
j-mac said:
Ok, but even your own video shows that Christian expansion was in response to Muslim conquest and aggression.
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Tell that to the Native Americans, or the Gauls, or the Africans. But you're certainly correct that religions (esp Canaanite religions) will react violently when they feel that they are threatened.

And that's exactly what ISIS is aiming for. They want to represent Islam. If they can take on the mantle of fighting for Islam, then attacking them is attacking Islam. We aren't attacking them because they're PoS terrorists, we're attacking them because we hate Islam and they have to be PoS terrorists to defend themselves. It gives them propoganda to recruit and radicalize from the gigantic pool of Islamic Fundamentalists.

So we have to say things like Islam is a religion of peace that has been hijacked by extremists. That's BS of course, but we have to make a distinction between the terrorists and the fundamentalists. Otherwise we'll end up fighting the entire Middle East, exactly the way ISIS wants.

Islam isn't a religion of peace. It's not a religion of war either. Islam is a knife, just like Christianity. And like a knife it can be used as a peacful tool or as a weapon of war. It all depends on the motivations of the person weilding it. Christianity has had centuries of industrialization to temper it's use. Islam has had centuries of hardship to promote it's abuse. (eg The African campaign in WWII centered in Tunisia; it didn't go well for the Arabic people)

So you're not factually wrong to complain about this being a problem within Islam, it just hurts our cause. (not that anything posted on some random site matters, it's more what our elected leaders say and why the President doesn't use the term Islamic Terrorists)
 
Good morning Mithros. You have a lot to unpack here so, if I can....


Mithros said:
Tell that to the Native Americans, or the Gauls, or the Africans. But you're certainly correct that religions (esp Canaanite religions) will react violently when they feel that they are threatened.
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Most, if not all humans will react on one of two ways when threatened. Fight or flight...That is a fact. However, you make the same mistake of many whom seek to find fault from within first, by blaming the actions of others, on some perceived injustice by us in whatever time from the past validates their attack on us today.

And that's exactly what ISIS is aiming for. They want to represent Islam. If they can take on the mantle of fighting for Islam, then attacking them is attacking Islam. We aren't attacking them because they're PoS terrorists, we're attacking them because we hate Islam and they have to be PoS terrorists to defend themselves. It gives them propoganda to recruit and radicalize from the gigantic pool of Islamic Fundamentalists.
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So what is your solution? Ignore them? Let them cleanse the ME by the sword? I am sure there were many in the beginning of WWII that made the same sorts of arguments against getting involved in Europe too. How many innocent Muslims, and Christians should die horrific deaths at the hands of these barbarians before you say enough?

So we have to say things like Islam is a religion of peace that has been hijacked by extremists. That's BS of course, but we have to make a distinction between the terrorists and the fundamentalists. Otherwise we'll end up fighting the entire Middle East, exactly the way ISIS wants.
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We have to? No, we don't. This administration refuses to call out the threat by name. Why? I don't know for sure, but I have my own opinion on that. But that doesn't mean that we all don't know what the threat is, or what it will take to stop it.

Islam isn't a religion of peace. It's not a religion of war either. Islam is a knife, just like Christianity. And like a knife it can be used as a peacful tool or as a weapon of war. It all depends on the motivations of the person weilding it. Christianity has had centuries of industrialization to temper it's use. Islam has had centuries of hardship to promote it's abuse. (eg The African campaign in WWII centered in Tunisia; it didn't go well for the Arabic people)
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Islam's refusal to reform is no ones fault but their own...Equating today's radicalization of Islam, and their attempt to induce a world wide caliphate is in no comparison to Christianity's response to Islam aggression a thousand years ago....It is a weak attempt to give false equivalence that is all...

So you're not factually wrong to complain about this being a problem within Islam, it just hurts our cause. (not that anything posted on some random site matters, it's more what our elected leaders say and why the President doesn't use the term Islamic Terrorists)
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And what exactly do you see as "our cause"?
 
j-mac said:
Good morning Mithros. You have a lot to unpack here so, if I can....




Most, if not all humans will react on one of two ways when threatened. Fight or flight...That is a fact. However, you make the same mistake of many whom seek to find fault from within first, by blaming the actions of others, on some perceived injustice by us in whatever time from the past validates their attack on us today.



So what is your solution? Ignore them? Let them cleanse the ME by the sword? I am sure there were many in the beginning of WWII that made the same sorts of arguments against getting involved in Europe too. How many innocent Muslims, and Christians should die horrific deaths at the hands of these barbarians before you say enough?



We have to? No, we don't. This administration refuses to call out the threat by name. Why? I don't know for sure, but I have my own opinion on that. But that doesn't mean that we all don't know what the threat is, or what it will take to stop it.



Islam's refusal to reform is no ones fault but their own...Equating today's radicalization of Islam, and their attempt to induce a world wide caliphate is in no comparison to Christianity's response to Islam aggression a thousand years ago....It is a weak attempt to give false equivalence that is all...



And what exactly do you see as "our cause"?
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Afternoon!

Our cause is removing ISIS as a threat to anyone. I think we're all in agreement here.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't fight them, far from it. I'm saying that when we fight them we need to make it clear that we're not fighting against Islam. We need to make a distinction between the radical Islamists who make up ISIS and the fundamentalist Islamists who are sympathetic to ISIS's religious overtones but don't agree with ISIS's methods.

Imagine if we waged a war against radical conservative terrorists after the Oklahoma city bombing. Imagine how that would have felt as a conservative. You may have been sympathetic towards some of McVeighs ideas, but you certainly didn't support the bombing. Now the US government is lumping you in with McVeigh. All of the sudden things are different. Maybe the US government is really that bad? Maybe they do really have to go. All of a sudden, you're much more willing to listen to what people like McVeigh have to say.

For the first time pretty much ever, we're finally starting to get it. We're playing politics in the Muslim world instead of just relying on brute force. We created Bin Laden in the proxy war with the Soviets. We created Al Queda in Iraq when we removed Saddam. And we created ISIS because of the insurgency in Iraq. Cowboy politics may play great domestically, but they create problems internationally.

Everyone in the region is scared of ISIS. By focusing on ISIS rather than Islam we give political cover to countries like Jordan, Turkey, Egypt, etc to help out. They can't do that if we're fighting a war against Islam.
 
MMC said:
Mornin JMac. :2wave: Here is what Jonah Goldberg has to say about this.....oh and he takes BO peep to task. He needs to be more vocal and keep the Highlight on the BO's incompetence. ;)


When Obama alludes to the evils of medieval Christianity, he fails to acknowledge the key word: "medieval." What made medieval Christianity backward wasn't Christianity but medievalism. It is perverse that Obama feels compelled to lecture the West about not getting too judgmental on our "high horse" about radical Islam's medieval barbarism in 2015 because of Christianity's medieval barbarism in 1215.

It's also insipidly hypocritical. President Obama can't bring himself to call the Islamic State "Islamic," but he's happy to offer a sermon about Christianity's alleged crimes at the beginning of the last millennium.

We are all descended from cavemen who broke the skulls of their enemies with rocks for fun or profit. But that hardly mitigates the crimes of a man who does the same thing today. I see no problem judging the behavior of the Islamic State and its apologists from the vantage point of the West's high horse, because we've earned the right to sit in that saddle.....snip~

Obama's Comparison of Christianity, Radical Islam Defies Logic - Jonah Goldberg - Page 2


cowboy.gif
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One would have to be really dense or just purposely obtuse in order to miss the point of what Obama was saying.
Obama was trying to point out that the "Christians" in the KKK who did lynchings were not behaving in a manner condoned by the Christian religion and for them to say that they were acting as Christians was crap; just as it is crap for ISIS so say that they are acting as Muslims. They might be Muslims but their behavior is not according to their religion. It is political. It isn't about religion, it is about power. Seems that we have to watch all those "men of God" especially when they stray from the religious and start pontificating about the secular.

God: Though shall not kill.
Satan: Kill, but do it in God's name.
 
Mithros said:
Afternoon!

Our cause is removing ISIS as a threat to anyone. I think we're all in agreement here.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't fight them, far from it. I'm saying that when we fight them we need to make it clear that we're not fighting against Islam. We need to make a distinction between the radical Islamists who make up ISIS and the fundamentalist Islamists who are sympathetic to ISIS's religious overtones but don't agree with ISIS's methods.

Imagine if we waged a war against radical conservative terrorists after the Oklahoma city bombing. Imagine how that would have felt as a conservative. You may have been sympathetic towards some of McVeighs ideas, but you certainly didn't support the bombing. Now the US government is lumping you in with McVeigh. All of the sudden things are different. Maybe the US government is really that bad? Maybe they do really have to go. All of a sudden, you're much more willing to listen to what people like McVeigh have to say.

For the first time pretty much ever, we're finally starting to get it. We're playing politics in the Muslim world instead of just relying on brute force. We created Bin Laden in the proxy war with the Soviets. We created Al Queda in Iraq when we removed Saddam. And we created ISIS because of the insurgency in Iraq. Cowboy politics may play great domestically, but they create problems internationally.

Everyone in the region is scared of ISIS. By focusing on ISIS rather than Islam we give political cover to countries like Jordan, Turkey, Egypt, etc to help out. They can't do that if we're fighting a war against Islam.
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22%! Radical terror influence now spans the globe, and is in outbreak across the nation. Think about that for a moment....22%

As for the lie that McVeigh was a far right Christian terrorist....allow me to excerpt from a Time Magazine interview in 2001...

"Time: Are you religious?

McVeigh: I was raised Catholic. I was confirmed Catholic (received the sacrament of confirmation). Through my military years, I sort of lost touch with the religion. I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs.

Time: Do you believe in God?

McVeigh: I do believe in a God, yes. But that's as far as I want to discuss. If I get too detailed on some things that are personal like that, it gives people an easier way [to] alienate themselves from me and that's all they are looking for now."

Now, those that seek pleasure in distorting that Christians are somehow at fault for merely existing, is just as facile as those whom seek to believe that America is responsible for a Jihad that has existed in the Islamic world since long before the US ever existed as a nation.

What really gets me, and what I will never understand is people that live here, are educated here, derive their very sustenance, and livelyhood from here, and IMHO would wither, and adopt a fetal position should they loose the comfy life they have here, are so quick to blame the very country that affords this life to them...People DIE trying to get here, for Christ sake...!!

Of that group that calls itself Muslim, but refuses to shun, or stand up to the tactic of terror within, or worse yet practices al Taqyya in the form of weak tea denouncements of the latest atrocity we are forced to witness on news programs selling Viagra, or the latest Vaginal cream while I try to eat my damn dinner, I say hold them accountable.

I'll blame political parties for playing games. I'll blame the administration for dhimmi like behavior. Hell, I'll even blame myself for not speaking plainly about it earlier. But, blame my country for some 8th century, backward ass thinking dumb ass in a sand filled, God foresaken hell hole? Not a chance. Sorry.
 
zip98053 said:
One would have to be really dense or just purposely obtuse in order to miss the point of what Obama was saying.
Obama was trying to point out that the "Christians" in the KKK who did lynchings were not behaving in a manner condoned by the Christian religion and for them to say that they were acting as Christians was crap; just as it is crap for ISIS so say that they are acting as Muslims. They might be Muslims but their behavior is not according to their religion. It is political. It isn't about religion, it is about power. Seems that we have to watch all those "men of God" especially when they stray from the religious and start pontificating about the secular.

God: Though shall not kill.
Satan: Kill, but do it in God's name.
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No one "missed the point" of what our current liar n chief was saying, just scoffing at the sheer audacity of the exercise in false equivalency he practiced.
 
Grant said:
I'd be happy to respond but what "30 years war" are you talking about "which was Catholics going after protestants in central Europe" and "that itself was 7.5 million on the low end"?
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This is too funny. First you replied to the thirty years war post of mine by saying I don't know history... so now you are admitting you had absolutely no clue to the thirty years war at all at the same time you snarking me about knowing history. :lamo

Thirty Years' War

Death Toll...
 
poweRob said:
This is too funny. First you replied to the thirty years war post of mine by saying I don't know history... so now you are admitting you had absolutely no clue to the thirty years war at all at the same time you snarking me about knowing history. :lamo

Thirty Years' War

Death Toll...
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You said Nah... 30 years war which was Catholics going after protestants in central Europe. That itself was 7.5 million on the low end. Convert or die. Different religion, different time... but same crap.
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Yet in the first lines of your link it says. "Initially a war between Protestant and Catholic states in the fragmenting Holy Roman Empire, it gradually developed into a more general conflict involving most of the great powers of Europe,[16] becoming less about religion and more a continuation of the France–Habsburg rivalry for European political pre-eminence".

So this "convert or die" link doesn't apply nor does the number of deaths. They are all guesses but 3 million is the low end.

Nonetheless I agree with your assertion that Islam today can be compared to Medieval Europe.
 
j-mac said:
22%! Radical terror influence now spans the globe, and is in outbreak across the nation. Think about that for a moment....22%

As for the lie that McVeigh was a far right Christian terrorist....allow me to excerpt from a Time Magazine interview in 2001...

"Time: Are you religious?

McVeigh: I was raised Catholic. I was confirmed Catholic (received the sacrament of confirmation). Through my military years, I sort of lost touch with the religion. I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs.

Time: Do you believe in God?

McVeigh: I do believe in a God, yes. But that's as far as I want to discuss. If I get too detailed on some things that are personal like that, it gives people an easier way [to] alienate themselves from me and that's all they are looking for now."

Now, those that seek pleasure in distorting that Christians are somehow at fault for merely existing, is just as facile as those whom seek to believe that America is responsible for a Jihad that has existed in the Islamic world since long before the US ever existed as a nation.

What really gets me, and what I will never understand is people that live here, are educated here, derive their very sustenance, and livelyhood from here, and IMHO would wither, and adopt a fetal position should they loose the comfy life they have here, are so quick to blame the very country that affords this life to them...People DIE trying to get here, for Christ sake...!!

Of that group that calls itself Muslim, but refuses to shun, or stand up to the tactic of terror within, or worse yet practices al Taqyya in the form of weak tea denouncements of the latest atrocity we are forced to witness on news programs selling Viagra, or the latest Vaginal cream while I try to eat my damn dinner, I say hold them accountable.

I'll blame political parties for playing games. I'll blame the administration for dhimmi like behavior. Hell, I'll even blame myself for not speaking plainly about it earlier. But, blame my country for some 8th century, backward ass thinking dumb ass in a sand filled, God foresaken hell hole? Not a chance. Sorry.
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I think you've proven my point quite well. I asked you how you would feel if the US government called Timothy McVeighs a Conservative Extremist. There was nothing about Christianity, yet you took it as an attack on Christianity.

People who believe very deeply in their religion are often extremely quick to take offence at any perceived slight. I mean, there's supposedly a "war" on Christmas because some people say Happy Holidays. Think about that, someone posts a sign that says happy holidays and a large group of people feel that their religion is under attack. It' safe to assume that the Islamic world is going to be at least that irrational.

Isis knows this. Their goal is for the US government to attack them while calling them Islamists. That's what they're trying to do. Why should we give them what they want?
 
zip98053 said:
One would have to be really dense or just purposely obtuse in order to miss the point of what Obama was saying.
Obama was trying to point out that the "Christians" in the KKK who did lynchings were not behaving in a manner condoned by the Christian religion and for them to say that they were acting as Christians was crap; just as it is crap for ISIS so say that they are acting as Muslims. They might be Muslims but their behavior is not according to their religion. It is political. It isn't about religion, it is about power. Seems that we have to watch all those "men of God" especially when they stray from the religious and start pontificating about the secular. God: Though shall not kill. Satan: Kill, but do it in God's name.
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You make the common misunderstanding that Islam is not political in nature. In fact, unlike Christianity, it is very political and some research will confirm this. You can easily spot the difference in countries where Islam has taken hold and Sharia Law introduced.
 
Mithros said:
I think you've proven my point quite well. I asked you how you would feel if the US government called Timothy McVeighs a Conservative Extremist. There was nothing about Christianity, yet you took it as an attack on Christianity.

People who believe very deeply in their religion are often extremely quick to take offence at any perceived slight. I mean, there's supposedly a "war" on Christmas because some people say Happy Holidays. Think about that, someone posts a sign that says happy holidays and a large group of people feel that their religion is under attack. It' safe to assume that the Islamic world is going to be at least that irrational.

Isis knows this. Their goal is for the US government to attack them while calling them Islamists. That's what they're trying to do. Why should we give them what they want?
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I think we are smarter than that, at the levels that make those decisions don't you? At least I hope so...In any case, as long as we can hold out for another year and a half, we can get, hopefully, some competent leadership in DC again.
 
j-mac said:
I think we are smarter than that, at the levels that make those decisions don't you? At least I hope so...In any case, as long as we can hold out for another year and a half, we can get, hopefully, some competent leadership in DC again.
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Smarter than that? Well I think we certainly are acting intelligently now, but there is a push to do dumb things that feel good and play well domestically.

Labelling Isis as Islamic may feel good. It may score political points. But it hurts American interests and makes us less safe. Isis wants a holy war so they can recruit more Muslims. Labelling them as Islamic makes that easier. They don't get to fight a holy war unless we say that they represent Islam. More Americans would die if the President conflated ISIS with Islam.

And this is a great litmus test. If you see a public leader making a huge deal of labelling ISIS as Islamic, then they are primarily interested in scoring points domestically. They're not interested in actually making us safer or combating terrorism abroad.
 
Mithros said:
Smarter than that? Well I think we certainly are acting intelligently now, but there is a push to do dumb things that feel good and play well domestically.

Labelling Isis as Islamic may feel good. It may score political points. But it hurts American interests and makes us less safe. Isis wants a holy war so they can recruit more Muslims. Labelling them as Islamic makes that easier. They don't get to fight a holy war unless we say that they represent Islam. More Americans would die if the President conflated ISIS with Islam.

And this is a great litmus test. If you see a public leader making a huge deal of labelling ISIS as Islamic, then they are primarily interested in scoring points domestically. They're not interested in actually making us safer or combating terrorism abroad.
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People will label ISIS as Islamic because it is Islamic. It is not the Islam many might prefer but unless it is going against the words of their prophet, like it or not, it is Islam. Worrying about propaganda for these scum, while thousands are being raped and butchered, seems the least of the problems.
 
Mithros said:
Smarter than that? Well I think we certainly are acting intelligently now, but there is a push to do dumb things that feel good and play well domestically.

Labelling Isis as Islamic may feel good. It may score political points. But it hurts American interests and makes us less safe. Isis wants a holy war so they can recruit more Muslims. Labelling them as Islamic makes that easier. They don't get to fight a holy war unless we say that they represent Islam. More Americans would die if the President conflated ISIS with Islam.

And this is a great litmus test. If you see a public leader making a huge deal of labelling ISIS as Islamic, then they are primarily interested in scoring points domestically. They're not interested in actually making us safer or combating terrorism abroad.
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Seems to me you can't fight an enemy you refuse to even name.
 
j-mac said:
Yeah, we have known each other so long that I guess some of that is inevitable. However, as you portray yourself to be the more measured one, you'd think that you would want to be the bigger person. I guess not....:coffeepap:
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I think I have been. But that is neither here nor there. The point is this entire thread is yet one more ODS overreaction with no consideration as to what the real reasons might be. This is too typical of these discussions. Anytime anyone whats to seriously discuss an issue, I'm more than willing. You have even commented on other discussions I've been in and the reasonableness there. When you commented on those, I asked you to explore the difference in the issue, the tone, and the willingness of the person I talk to address exactly what i say, and not the silliness you andothers tend to attach with nothing in the words I write to merit doing so.

But, I'll do either. As always, it's your choice.
 
Mithros said:
Is the enemy Islam?
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While those who are creating terror throughout the world are Muslims, terrorism is endorsed or sympathized with, in general, about about 50% of Muslims, depending on which country the poll is taken. For example, 27% of Muslims in England, once a very civilized country, sympathized with the murders of the Charley Hebdo employees, a black mark against any group of people.

The sad fact is that Islam has never offered a great deal to the world except poverty, oppression, a variety of phobias and terrorism.

But f you can name something positive about this religion and its adherents, I'd be pleased to learn what it is. I can also understand any reluctance to be too critical of them. American Blogger Hacked to Death by Muslim Mob for Criticizing Islamic Extremism in Bangladesh
 
j-mac said:
Islam? not necessarily, but they are Islamic.
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If the enemy is not Islam, why would you intentionally antagonize them? There are 1.6 Billion Muslims world wide and something like half of them are devout fundamentalists. Currently fundamentalist Sunni's and fundamentalist Shiites have joined together to fight ISIS. Lumping the people fighting on our side with the people fighting against us is silly.


And this idea that we're pretending that they're not Islamic extremists is ridiculous. Have you noticed that we were aware of every single one of the terrorists like the Boston bombers. Why? Because we watch all the Islamic extremists. We know the people that are most likely to strike against us.

Publicly making statements against Islam is counterproductive, irresponsible, and is giving aid and comfort to our enemies.
 
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