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Thread: Obama condemns those who seek to 'hijack religion'

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    Re: Obama condemns those who seek to 'hijack religion'

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    If the enemy is not Islam, why would you intentionally antagonize them? There are 1.6 Billion Muslims world wide and something like half of them are devout fundamentalists. Currently fundamentalist Sunni's and fundamentalist Shiites have joined together to fight ISIS. Lumping the people fighting on our side with the people fighting against us is silly.

    It isn't that simple...If we are to use your number here, half are, and half aren't radicalized, it sure doesn't show with the either lack of speaking out, or at best weak denunciation of atrocities when they happen, leads me to believe that more are in agreement with the radicals than not, and the leaders surely are saying one thing to our face, and practicing another behind our backs through their support.

    And this idea that we're pretending that they're not Islamic extremists is ridiculous. Have you noticed that we were aware of every single one of the terrorists like the Boston bombers. Why? Because we watch all the Islamic extremists. We know the people that are most likely to strike against us.
    Are you kidding here? Really? you don't remember this type of thing just a few short weeks ago....

    Obama proclaims: 'We are not at war with Islam' - CNN.com
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    Re: Obama condemns those who seek to 'hijack religion'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    It isn't that simple...If we are to use your number here, half are, and half aren't radicalized, it sure doesn't show with the either lack of speaking out, or at best weak denunciation of atrocities when they happen, leads me to believe that more are in agreement with the radicals than not, and the leaders surely are saying one thing to our face, and practicing another behind our backs through their support.



    Are you kidding here? Really? you don't remember this type of thing just a few short weeks ago....

    Obama proclaims: 'We are not at war with Islam' - CNN.com
    Understand that there is a vast difference between what you do and what you say. It's like dogs and barking. Big dogs don't have to bark to get respect. Little dogs bark all of the time to try and get respect, but only end up annoying everyone.

    The Administration is well aware that the terrorists come from Islamic Fundamentalists who have been radicalised. So that's who they pay attention to. It's not some revelation that they're all Islamic. But serious people realize that the real war against terrorism is fought in the space between Islamic Fundamentalists and Islamic Extremists. ISIS realizes this as well. If ISIS can recruit more Islamic Fundamentalists than we kill, they win. If we can cut-off the source of their recruits we win.

    ISIS's goal is to make this fight about religion. Something like 1 of every 10 people on this planet sympathize in some way with many of ISIS's beliefs. That's a huge pool of people they can recruit from. ISIS would love to recruit them to it's side. That's why they're trying to goad everyone into fighting a holy war against them. They only need fractions of a percent of all fundamentalist muslims to join their side for them to effectively win the middle east.

    What I can't understand is why you seem to want to help ISIS get what they want. Is it because you're viewing these events through a Christian prism? Do you think that fighting against Islam because it's "false" is a good thing? The only way to promote stability in the region and to defeat ISIS is to join a unified front of Muslims who stand against ISIS. Right now that's what's happening. Saying that we're fighting Islam ruins that and all but guarantees ISIS domination.

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    Re: Obama condemns those who seek to 'hijack religion'

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Understand that there is a vast difference between what you do and what you say. It's like dogs and barking. Big dogs don't have to bark to get respect. Little dogs bark all of the time to try and get respect, but only end up annoying everyone.
    Morning Mithros, Maybe there is a 'vast difference' in what YOU do and what YOU say, but don't project that shortfall on me....I try keeping my word. It's called integrity. Concerning ISIS, it seems that they are doing exactly what they say they will. In fact, that's the whole problem with this whole thing. In some respects we have projected our values onto our enemies, and instead of listening to what their stated goals are. They are telling us what they want, we just don't listen.

    The Administration is well aware that the terrorists come from Islamic Fundamentalists who have been radicalised. So that's who they pay attention to. It's not some revelation that they're all Islamic. But serious people realize that the real war against terrorism is fought in the space between Islamic Fundamentalists and Islamic Extremists. ISIS realizes this as well. If ISIS can recruit more Islamic Fundamentalists than we kill, they win. If we can cut-off the source of their recruits we win.
    Aw, here we go....Now we are going to play word salad, trying too hard by half in figuring out what to do about these pieces of trash. We are losing this from our current approach of leading from behind. Nothing less. Plus the fact that none of these governments over there are willing to step up and take on the problem themselves...At some point we have to take this on seriously in our interests.

    ISIS's goal is to make this fight about religion. Something like 1 of every 10 people on this planet sympathize in some way with many of ISIS's beliefs. That's a huge pool of people they can recruit from. ISIS would love to recruit them to it's side. That's why they're trying to goad everyone into fighting a holy war against them. They only need fractions of a percent of all fundamentalist muslims to join their side for them to effectively win the middle east.
    And our response is to let it happen? You see that as a good thing?

    What I can't understand is why you seem to want to help ISIS get what they want. Is it because you're viewing these events through a Christian prism? Do you think that fighting against Islam because it's "false" is a good thing? The only way to promote stability in the region and to defeat ISIS is to join a unified front of Muslims who stand against ISIS. Right now that's what's happening. Saying that we're fighting Islam ruins that and all but guarantees ISIS domination.
    Sticking our heads in the sand is not going to make it go away...As for it being false, I am not so sure it is...Islam after all is a religion built on murder, and conquest. They are in effect a sort of anti religion.
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    Re: Obama condemns those who seek to 'hijack religion'

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    If the enemy is not Islam, why would you intentionally antagonize them?
    Why are you so worried? When the democracies went to war against the Japanese they were called, and the Germans were called Germans, or Nazis. But somehow mentioning Islamic terrorists is different? You seem to believe that Muslims don't understand the difference between Islamic Terrorists and regular Muslims, which would be an insult to every Muslim. I knw of no other situation where anyone would be offended by the term Christian, Jewish, atheist or Hindu terrorist but somehow these child-like Muslims need protection from words or their sensibilities will suffer. BH Obama is a fool, and internationally recognized as such. You needn't parrot whatever this buff on claims.

    There are 1.6 Billion Muslims world wide and something like half of them are devout fundamentalists. Currently fundamentalist Sunni's and fundamentalist Shiites have joined together to fight ISIS. Lumping the people fighting on our side with the people fighting against us is silly.
    They are still Muslims. Try to get over it.


    And this idea that we're pretending that they're not Islamic extremists is ridiculous. Have you noticed that we were aware of every single one of the terrorists like the Boston bombers. Why? Because we watch all the Islamic extremists. We know the people that are most likely to strike against us.
    Good to see you can use 'Islamist Extremists" in a sentence. That's something even the most powerful citizen in the USA can't do.

    Publicly making statements against Islam is counterproductive, irresponsible, and is giving aid and comfort to our enemies.
    Giving aid? How so?

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    Re: Obama condemns those who seek to 'hijack religion'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    It isn't that simple...If we are to use your number here, half are, and half aren't radicalized, it sure doesn't show with the either lack of speaking out, or at best weak denunciation of atrocities when they happen, leads me to believe that more are in agreement with the radicals than not, and the leaders surely are saying one thing to our face, and practicing another behind our backs through their support.

    Obama proclaims: 'We are not at war with Islam' - CNN.com
    Right, so instead of condemning all of them, we should target only the culprits. One way to do that is through journalism. See our journalist Arbana Xharra for an example how she exposed the arrival of extremist Islamists to Dardania through post war NGO's and influencing the poorest, weakest, most existentially lost members to join their extreme Islamist ranks.

    Fissures in the Faith: Rise of Conservative Islamists Alarms Kosovans :: Balkan Insight

    She was awarded the international "Woman of Courage" just recently

    In Dardania, where might once claimed to make right, Arbana Xharra dedicated her career as a journalist to exposing corruption, shedding light on graft, and changing society peacefully and without strife. Arbana has reported on religious extremism, linking local imams and NGOs with foreign terrorist organizations. Her words have prompted the government to address problems from extremism to corruption. Like other women on this stage today, Arbana faced death threats for her work. But as editor-in-chief of one of Dardania’s leading daily newspapers, Arbana still pursues stories wherever they lead, despite its peril, while passing on her legacy to the next generation of writers.

    For her unwavering pursuit of truth in the fight against violent extremism, we honor Arbana Xharra as a woman of courage. (Applause.)
    Remarks at the International Women of Courage Ceremony
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
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    Re: Obama condemns those who seek to 'hijack religion'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Why are you so worried? When the democracies went to war against the Japanese they were called, and the Germans were called Germans, or Nazis. But somehow mentioning Islamic terrorists is different?
    We didn't call the Germans "Christian Radicals" and we didn't call the Japanese "Shinto Terrorists." We call the people we are fighting by their political designation and that's why we call them ISIS or ISIL. We don't nominally single out the dominant religion of the group because war and terrorism are not spiritual acts (i.e., acts of religion). They are, by definition, political acts.

    You seem to believe that Muslims don't understand the difference between Islamic Terrorists and regular Muslims, which would be an insult to every Muslim. I knw of no other situation where anyone would be offended by the term Christian, Jewish, atheist or Hindu terrorist but somehow these child-like Muslims need protection from words or their sensibilities will suffer. BH Obama is a fool, and internationally recognized as such. You needn't parrot whatever this buff on claims.?
    You seem to believe that it is necessary to attack a religion when the religion is not the problem. The problem is the people who are using religion as a pretext for a power grab. You also seem to have an opinion of Obama that would prevent you from being able to objectively analyze anything he says.

    Giving aid? How so?
    So, you think that if Obama got up and said "The US is at war with Islam" that would be a good thing?

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    Re: Obama condemns those who seek to 'hijack religion'

    Quote Originally Posted by zip98053 View Post
    We didn't call the Germans "Christian Radicals" and we didn't call the Japanese "Shinto Terrorists."
    And do you understand the reason for that? It wasn't Shinto that bound these people together, nor was it Christianity.
    We call the people we are fighting by their political designation and that's why we call them ISIS or ISIL. We don't nominally single out the dominant religion of the group because war and terrorism are not spiritual acts (i.e., acts of religion). They are, by definition, political acts.
    That is no definition at all and, what's more, Islam is political as well as religious system, as any Islamic scholar will tell you..
    You seem to believe that it is necessary to attack a religion when the religion is not the problem.
    Au contraire. The religion of Islam is the problem. It is the most backward of the major religions and more evidence of this is presented each day.
    The problem is the people who are using religion as a pretext for a power grab
    And the writings allow and encourage that power grab. That's the problem.
    You also seem to have an opinion of Obama that would prevent you from being able to objectively analyze anything he says.
    Obama is a fool. And please don't guess at my opinions.

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    Re: Obama condemns those who seek to 'hijack religion'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    And do you understand the reason for that? It wasn't Shinto that bound these people together, nor was it Christianity.
    And you understand why Obama pointed out that people who do despicable things in the name of religion should not cause a blanket denunciation of the religion? Just like we should not denounce Christianity just because some people did (and do) really bad things in the name the Christian God.


    That is no definition at all and, what's more, Islam is political as well as religious system, as any Islamic scholar will tell you..
    I think that the scholar will tell you that Sharia is the law that is nominally derived from the Quran which provides guidance that is similar to what you find in the Bible, especially Leviticus.

    Au contraire. The religion of Islam is the problem. It is the most backward of the major religions and more evidence of this is presented each day.And the writings allow and encourage that power grab. That's the problem.
    What one should recognize is that, even though Christianity and Islam are equally backwards, Christianity is practiced in more advanced countries that aren't quite as tribal.

    The Koran does not encourage any "power grab." The Koran teaches tolerance. The problem is, there are religious zealots in all religions who will pervert the meaning of the religious scriptures to meet their own needs. Christians do that in the US when they Bible thump about abortion, gay rights, and a host of other things. Religious leaders have always interpreted the scripture to support expanding the faith, by force if necessary, because that is increases their power. Political leaders have also used scripture to justify power grabs.

    Moses is a prophet in both the Christian and Islamic faiths. Moses was given the 10 commandments. One of them is "Thou shalt not kill." That's pretty clear and supported by both the Bible and the Quran. The exception is that people are allowed to protect themselves in times of war. We find that in I Samuel 15:3 or in Quran 8:12. The people who want to make a case for the Quran condoning indiscriminate killing of infidels will take text out of context (much as people take Biblical verses out of context to "prove" a point).


    Obama is a fool. And please don't guess at my opinions.
    I didn't guess at your opinion, you stated it. When you state that you have a bias, am I to disregard that and believe that you don't have a bias?

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    Re: Obama condemns those who seek to 'hijack religion'

    Quote Originally Posted by zip98053 View Post
    And you understand why Obama pointed out that people who do despicable things in the name of religion should not cause a blanket denunciation of the religion?
    That's why we should call them Islamist extremists or radicals rather than just Muslims. It is Muslims who are committing terrorism throughout the world so wouldn't it make sense to call them 'extreme' rather than just 'Muslim"?
    Just like we should not denounce Christianity just because some people did (and do) really bad things in the name the Christian God.
    In fact if there were Christians murdering, torturing and raping throughout the world I think we could safely call them 'Christian extremists'. Why not?
    I think that the scholar will tell you that Sharia is the law that is nominally derived from the Quran.
    That's what makes it political.
    What one should recognize is that, even though Christianity and Islam are equally backwards, Christianity is practiced in more advanced countries that aren't quite as tribal.
    Yes, those who live in Christian countries are much more advanced than those forced to live under Islam. There is no doubt about that. Those in Israel as well. And Japan.
    The Koran does not encourage any "power grab." The Koran teaches tolerance.
    It also teaches intolerance and forced conversions..
    The problem is, there are religious zealots in all religions who will pervert the meaning of the religious scriptures to meet their own needs.
    But ALL religions are not murdering, raping and terrorizing throughout the world. Just Muslims.

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    Re: Obama condemns those who seek to 'hijack religion'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    You really don't see the problem with excusing what is going on today with ISIS, to that of events of 500 and 800 years ago? Really?
    Is anyone excusing what's happening today? Well, other than crazy liberals. What I see is the acknowledgement that Islam is absolutely no worse than Christianity was a couple of hundred years ago. One religion isn't inherently better than the other, which a lot of Christians are claiming. In fact, they're arguing that Christianity is better because Christians aren't being animals today, preferring to pretend and make excuses about their behavior in the past.

    All religions suck. Islam just sucks a lot more right now. That doesn't excuse any of the rest of them.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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