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Obama condemns those who seek to 'hijack religion'

MMC said:
Try again.....whats their real name? So save all that BS they are using the correct terminology. He knows exactly who they are.....but that goes against what he told an entire planet.
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Blah blah blah, read the transcript. You are making yourself look silly by lying like this.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
You act like that was done in a vacuum. I mean really bro, both sides carpet bombed cities, that's how war was fought back then.
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Then get over it, or sue/lobby for peace, and an end to aggressions, rather than justifying them only when committed by the US and condemning all others.
 
Lutherf said:
I don't hate the guy. I've never met him and for all I know he's a blast to hang out with. What I do hate, however, is his politics. Damned near everything the guy does or tries to do flies in the face of everything I hold dear as an American.
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Well, I'm getting pretty close. It takes a special kind of bastard to turn your back on friends desperately in need of help you can deliver with a phone and a pen in short order, all, I suspect, in order to complete a bad under the table deal with Iran he can run around and brag about. I hope I'm wrong.
 
MMC said:
Yeah yeah yeah.....read Post 66 then get back to me. :roll:
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Post 66 has nothing to do with your stupid, nonsensical, inane, pointless, crappy, silly and retarded comment that Obama doesn't know that ISIS is our enemy and can't say their name. You don't even know what we're talking about?

Your talking points are growing tired.
 
Slyfox696 said:
That's not what he did. He wasn't excusing the actions of ISIS at all. He was saying the actions of ISIS are not a reflection of a religion and to not erroneously associate the two. said.
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I agree he was in no way excusing actions of ISIS. An I get that he is trying to create a wedge between ISis and more mainstream Islam.
But the sad a fact of the matter is that the religion of Islam is a big part of the problem. It's naive to think otherwise.
 
Lutherf said:
I don't hate the guy. I've never met him and for all I know he's a blast to hang out with. What I do hate, however, is his politics. Damned near everything the guy does or tries to do flies in the face of everything I hold dear as an American.
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I recall distinctly feeling that way about George Bush, and to a degree share your feelings about Obama. Will be nice if the day ever arises that the independents that out number republicans and democrats, form a new party and begin to advance policies that lift America up, and that promote the same abroad, rather then promoting policies that are injurious to all but the few, both at home and abroad, and let the ass and the elephant set one (a presidential administration) out, and see if that doesn't get their attention. Of course, American politics is not unlike football, you're expected to pick a team and root for it while trying to crush the opponent, so I'm just venting Lutherf, I have small hopes of anything other then the status quo in at least my lifetime.
 
Montecresto said:
Then get over it, or sue/lobby for peace, and an end to aggressions, rather than justifying them only when committed by the US and condemning all others.
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What have I justified? I pointed out your complaining about the US and the US alone seems rather prejudicial at best.
 
roughdraft274 said:
Post 66 has nothing to do with your stupid, nonsensical, inane, pointless, crappy, silly and retarded comment that Obama doesn't know that ISIS is our enemy and can't say their name. You don't even know what we're talking about?

Your talking points are growing tired.
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Sure it does, and if you can't figure out why even Jonah Goldberg would say it also. Then you really shouldn't even try and discuss politics. Nor think you know much about it.
 
Confessing that I have not read the entire thread before posting, apologies if somebody else has posted this. But the Rev. Franklin Graham posted this on Facebook after the President's offensive remarks at the Prayer Breakfast:

“Today at the National Prayer Breakfast, the president implied that what ISIS is doing is equivalent to what happened over 1,000 years ago during the Crusades and the Inquisition, Rev. Graham wrote. “Mr. President — Many people in history have used the name of Jesus Christ to accomplish evil things for their own desires. But Jesus taught peace, love and forgiveness. He came to give His life for the sins of mankind, not to take life.”

“Muhammad on the contrary was a warrior and killed many innocent people. True followers of Christ emulate Christ — true followers of Muhammad emulate Muhammad.”

Even so, nobody would have thought anything about it--he might have gotten a standing "O" in fact--if Obama had said that those who commit such atrocities in the name of Allah dishonor peaceful Muslims everywhere and should merit their contempt and condemnation just as those who committed atrocities under the banner of Christianity deserve the contempt and condemnation of true followers of Christ's teachings.

The problem he has is that Jesus of Nazareth did teach peace, forgiveness, tolerance, common sense, and love. And he led or sent nobody into battle to kill, maim, or destroy. Nobody can say that of Mohammed, the Qu'ran or the Hadith.
 
MMC said:
Sure it does, and if you can't figure out why even Jonah Goldberg would say it also. Then you really shouldn't even try and discuss politics. Nor think you know much about it.
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I could wipe my nuts with what Jonah Goldberg says. Why should should I give a crap what his opinion is?

I consider what was said, not what some moron in national review thinks of it.
 
roughdraft274 said:
I could wipe my nuts with what Jonah Goldberg says. Why should should I give a crap what his opinion is?

I consider what was said, not what some moron in national review thinks of it.
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Yeah that's what most political pundits strategists and political media types do to.....figure it out or not. I could care less.
 
MildSteel said:
Well I don't think it's wise to mix religion with politics. But it is done anyway.

That said he did tell the truth, people should not hijack religion or use it as a weapon.
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Slyfox696 said:
That's not what he did. He [Pres. Obama) wasn't excusing the actions of ISIS at all. He was saying the actions of ISIS are not a reflection of a religion and to not erroneously associate the two. As an example, and to keep Americans from climbing up their high horse, he simply reminded us our past is full of evil acts committed in the name of religion, that were not religious at all.

Take off your "I hate everything Democrat" hat and try to see what's actually being said.
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Zyphlin said:
Because it's a contextually shallow narrative.

Christianity's use in the Crusades was not significantly different than some of its contemporaries, nor were the actions of the Crusades markedly outside of the cultural norms of what would be considered the developed world at that time. While that in no way excuses the violence that occured or the attrocities committed, the reality is that one must look at it at least in part within the context of the time it occurred.

This is not the case with regards to ISIS. Their methods and actions are significantly outside the cultural norms of the developed world. Their aggressive attempts to conquerer areas of land and claim them for their own, specifically in the name of their religion, is not in line with rather common actions of other nations/groups in this age.

While it's accurate to suggest violence has occurred in the name of other religions in the past, attempting to equate radical islam of today to christanity of the crusades as a means of suggesting people should not criticize it by getting on their "high horse", without any defference given to the contextual realities between the two situations, is ridiculous.

I'd be interested as well to see how many of the liberals/democrats seemingly agreeing with Obama's reasoning are also ones who like to get on their "high horse" about racist elements that align themselves with the Tea Party Movement or with the Republican party...you know, considering that at some point in previous history Democrats had racist elements aligning themselves with their party and groups. Will they or Obama employ the same method of declaring such elements as "not real" Tea partiers or Republicans and condemning those who attempt to conflate the two, even if they're doing so by describing them as a direct subset?
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I'm going to try to speak to the three highlighted points above because they seem to reflect both the intellectual and emotional tone of the thread.

I've read the transcript of the President's 2015 National Prayer Breakfast and feel confident in saying that the theme of the President's speech can be summed up in the 2nd sentence to paragraph 9:

...we've seen professions of faith used both as an instrument of great good, but also twisted and misused in the name of evil.
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Religious faith used for good...religious faith subverted and used for evil. No matter what commentary you've heard about the speech, if after listening to it or reading the transcript yourself you don't walk away with an acute understanding that people and/or groups claiming to be of a particular faith have done evil things in the name of their Holy deity, then you've missed the point entirely!

While I would agree that one should never mix religion with politics (i.e., "God spoke to me and I was compelled to ask Congress for authority to destroy our nation's enemies showing no mercy"), I don't think it's wrong to ask God for a military victory over those we are at war against (i.e., God, bless our troops as they go into battle against a foreign enemy; may they be victorious.). The trick here is the war must be justified.

As to the issue of the Crusades (and the Spanish Inquisition), I find it interesting that people would even attempt to gloss over the evil that was done in the name of God and Christ during such times. It did happen! Why the Crusades or the Inquisition began, who started it, whether or not either were benevolent is really irrelevant. Fact is, people did commit murder and other vile acts during such times in the name of God and Christ. They put their own personal ambitions ahead of their religious calling or the humane tenants of their faith. Doesn't matter whether they were during "modern times" or medieval times. The fact remains that even those who believed they were doing "God's will" still committed sinful acts in His name.
 
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(Continued from post #89...)

What President Obama was in essence saying is:

1) We have to guard against using our faith to commit evil acts that don't conform to peaceful teachings regardless of the religion; and,

2) Both followers of Christianity and Islam have done some dreadful things (past and present) in the name of "their" God and, in so doing, have twisted their religion to justify their actions.

Regardless of where you stand on certain portions of the speech, I don't think anyone who really listened to it or read it as I have can come away thinking he didn't condemn ISIL for what its doing in the name of the Muslim faith any more than you can condemn him for telling the truth about the evils Christian believers have done throughout our nation's history if not throughout time also in the name of God.

I think if people would take a moment to stop trying to find fault in the President about every little thing he says or does and just take a moment to listen and understand particularly in the context of this speech, you'd understand his were words of cautious warning to guard against using one's faith not to do good, but to do evil. Nothing more, nothing less. From the speech:

...we should start with some basic humility. I believe that the starting point of faith is some doubt -- not being so full of yourself and so confident that you are right and that God speaks only to us, and doesn’t speak to others, that God only cares about us and doesn’t care about others, that somehow we alone are in possession of the truth.

Our job is not to ask that God responds to our notion of truth -- our job is to be true to Him, His word, and His commandments. And we should assume humbly that we’re confused and don’t always know what we’re doing and we’re staggering and stumbling towards Him, and have some humility in that process. And that means we have to speak up against those who would misuse His name to justify oppression, or violence, or hatred with that fierce certainty. No God condones terror.
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matchlight said:
It takes a special breed of devotion to the America-resenting liar who is disgracing the White House to see his comments as anything but apologism for Muslim jihadists.
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Really? :doh

And so, as people of faith, we are summoned to push back against those who try to distort our religion -- any religion -- for their own nihilistic ends. And here at home and around the world, we will constantly reaffirm that fundamental freedom -- freedom of religion -- the right to practice our faith how we choose, to change our faith if we choose, to practice no faith at all if we choose, and to do so free of persecution and fear and discrimination.

There’s wisdom in our founders writing in those documents that help found this nation the notion of freedom of religion, because they understood the need for humility.

...

The United States is one of the most religious countries in the world -- far more religious than most Western developed countries. And one of the reasons is that our founders wisely embraced the separation of church and state. Our government does not sponsor a religion, nor does it pressure anyone to practice a particular faith, or any faith at all. And the result is a culture where people of all backgrounds and beliefs can freely and proudly worship, without fear, or coercion -- so that when you listen to Darrell talk about his faith journey you know it's real. You know he’s not saying it because it helps him advance, or because somebody told him to. It's from the heart.

That’s not the case in theocracies that restrict people’s choice of faith. It's not the case in authoritarian governments that elevate an individual leader or a political party above the people, or in some cases, above the concept of God Himself. So the freedom of religion is a value we will continue to protect here at home and stand up for around the world, and is one that we guard vigilantly here in the United States.
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Did you even listen to the speech or read the transcript?
 
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ReverendHellh0und said:
What have I justified? I pointed out your complaining about the US and the US alone seems rather prejudicial at best.
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On the contrary. There's plenty of problems, EVERYWHERE. But here's the deal, I'm an American living in Oklahoma/Arkansas, I vote here, I pay taxes here, and as such, I'm concerned with what America does. US foreign policy is a reflection on me, not on a Chinese citizen living along the banks of the Yangtze River, see. Just like China's foreign policy reflects upon him, good or bad, and not upon me.

I would like to see my country advance policies abroad that lift people up, inspire and encourage them, and advance the peace. Anybody can resort to fighting as a tool of conflict resolution. But it's the poorest tool, and almost always avoidable, and as children coming up, we were all taught that in fact it's an unacceptable tool!!!! The problem is that there are always a few who have a lot to gain by it on both sides of any conflict and Americans aren't immune to that. This is why I prefer people who think like Ron Paul as a single example, with regards to FP at least.
 
AlbqOwl said:
Confessing that I have not read the entire thread before posting, apologies if somebody else has posted this. But the Rev. Franklin Graham posted this on Facebook after the President's offensive remarks at the Prayer Breakfast:

“Today at the National Prayer Breakfast, the president implied that what ISIS is doing is equivalent to what happened over 1,000 years ago during the Crusades and the Inquisition, Rev. Graham wrote. “Mr. President — Many people in history have used the name of Jesus Christ to accomplish evil things for their own desires. But Jesus taught peace, love and forgiveness. He came to give His life for the sins of mankind, not to take life.”

“Muhammad on the contrary was a warrior and killed many innocent people. True followers of Christ emulate Christ — true followers of Muhammad emulate Muhammad.”

Even so, nobody would have thought anything about it--he might have gotten a standing "O" in fact--if Obama had said that those who commit such atrocities in the name of Allah dishonor peaceful Muslims everywhere and should merit their contempt and condemnation just as those who committed atrocities under the banner of Christianity deserve the contempt and condemnation of true followers of Christ's teachings.

The problem he has is that Jesus of Nazareth did teach peace, forgiveness, tolerance, common sense, and love. And he led or sent nobody into battle to kill, maim, or destroy. Nobody can say that of Mohammed, the Qu'ran or the Hadith.
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And the two do have there similarities. But that's as good as comparisons get. And only amongst partisans on the right was Obama excusing anything by pointing to it. But then that's the way the partisan rolls.
 
MMC said:
Then why can't he say their name? One must be able to defines one enemy.
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Again, either you (folks) weren't listening, failed to read the speech transcript or didn't hear the speech at all and are just responding based on what you heard from the talking heads on conservative talk radio (Sean Hannity in particular; that's all his show was about yesterday). :doh

From the speech, paragraph 11:

But we also see faith being twisted and distorted, used as a wedge -- or, worse, sometimes used as a weapon. From a school in Pakistan to the streets of Paris, we have seen violence and terror perpetrated by those who profess to stand up for faith, their faith, professed to stand up for Islam, but, in fact, are betraying it. We see ISIL, a brutal, vicious death cult that, in the name of religion, carries out unspeakable acts of barbarism -- terrorizing religious minorities like the Yezidis, subjecting women to rape as a weapon of war, and claiming the mantle of religious authority for such actions.
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Montecresto said:
And the two do have there similarities. But that's as good as comparisons get. And only amongst partisans on the right was Obama excusing anything by pointing to it. But then that's the way the partisan rolls.
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The 'similarities' are as few between Christianity and Islam as between Christianity and pretty much any other major religion. I listened to the speech though and base my opinions on what he said. Did you?
 
AlbqOwl said:
The 'similarities' are as few between Christianity and Islam as between Christianity and pretty much any other major religion. I listened to the speech though and base my opinions on what he said. Did you?
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Indubitably, and on that point I pretty much agree with him. Actually, I have studied 'comparative religions', and there's precious little differences between them in the end. In fact religion, while not always, is basically a scourge upon humanity, and the world would be far closer to utopian without it.
 
Montecresto said:
Indubitably, and on that point I pretty much agree with him. Actually, I have studied 'comparative religions', and there's precious little differences between them in the end. In fact religion, while not always, is basically a scourge upon humanity, and the world would be far closer to utopian without it.
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Well we'll just have to agree to disagree. (I write curriculum for and teach comparative religions.)
 
Objective Voice said:
Again, either you (folks) weren't listening, failed to read the speech transcript or didn't hear the speech at all and are just responding based on what you heard from the talking heads on conservative talk radio (Sean Hannity in particular; that's all his show was about yesterday). :doh

From the speech, paragraph 11:
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Yeah, and the other day he called them an Organization. Before that he called them the JV Team. He still says they are not Islamic.....despite them having Islamic Clerics to promote their version of Islam. :roll:
 
AlbqOwl said:
Well we'll just have to agree to disagree. (I write curriculum for and teach comparative religions.)
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Perhaps I sat in your class, lol. Fair enough, I once would have leaned toward the opinion that Buddhism is a religion of peace, and then I saw the carnage unfolding in the East of late. Truthfully, when religion is good, its great, and when its bad, its gawd damn awful! And it boggles my mind the horable things that humans are prepared to commit upon their faith that it pleases their god. And justify it in the end. I've been hearing people advocating that the two prisoners that Jordan executed recently, should have been burnt alive publicly, by folk who simultaneously confess their Christian faith. Imagine no religion, its easy if you try.
 
MMC said:
Yeah, and the other day he called them an Organization. Before that he called them the JV Team. He still says they are not Islamic.....despite them having Islamic Clerics to promote their version of Islam. :roll:
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"Isil, a brutal, vicious death cult" Which part do you object to?
 
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