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Thread: No fast or slow lanes for Internet? New rules proposed

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    Re: No fast or slow lanes for Internet? New rules proposed

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Are you trying to assert that we now have legitimate competition for other public utilliies?
    ??

    internet isnt power or water

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    Re: No fast or slow lanes for Internet? New rules proposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamaris View Post
    I don't know... Of course, we need to watch out for the government not to expand it power too much, but in this particular case...
    I've been watching this debate for some time, and as far as I understand, for once in a while our government is doing the right thing. It restricts the companies from making the user to pay not only for the Internet access, but also for access to certain sites. Just imagine you were forced to pay extra if you wanted to access Youtube, for example. Or this forum...
    Well, I would go to a different provider then. They all have said that they won't do that, so I don't see a reason for this government action to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
    "We have met the enemy and they are ours..." -- Oliver Hazard Perry
    "I don't want a piece of you... I want the whole thing!" -- Bob Barker

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    Re: No fast or slow lanes for Internet? New rules proposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony60 View Post
    Well, I would go to a different provider then. They all have said that they won't do that, so I don't see a reason for this government action to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
    you are lucky in that you have a choice in a populated area like new jersey, much of the country doesn't have the luxury and they should not be relegated to fourth world (because many third world countries do internet better than this one) infrastructure.

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    Re: No fast or slow lanes for Internet? New rules proposed

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    ??

    internet isnt power or water
    True, but if it was treated as power or water then a single provider could be granted exclusive access to a given area. My point is that making something into a utility does not encourage competition. My water company is now permitted to charge a monthly minimum, regardless of my actual usage, which makes no sense at all - that requires lower usage customers to subsidize higher usage customers.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: No fast or slow lanes for Internet? New rules proposed

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    True, but if it was treated as power or water then a single provider could be granted exclusive access to a given area. My point is that making something into a utility does not encourage competition. My water company is now permitted to charge a monthly minimum, regardless of my actual usage, which makes no sense at all - that requires lower usage customers to subsidize higher usage customers.
    I agree, title 2 is better than a tiered internet, but this is what I would like to see instead.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1064278086

    As for the monthly minimum for water, there is a high static costs for a treatment facility that stay the same even if the amount of water they treat is below their optimal capacity. Outflow tends to not be measured, just inflow, so its just averaged. For example, if I use draino, it costs more to treat than using the toilet for its typical use, but theres no way to measure that on an individual household level without new meters.

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    Re: No fast or slow lanes for Internet? New rules proposed

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    The subsidies were necessary to keep our infrastructure building out fast enough to keep pace with other countries. That cat was necessary at the time and it being out of the bag is the way it is. I would be perfectly fine if we passed a different law stating that states and local governments cannot give exclusion rights to ISP cabling and any cabling that was subsidized needs to be leased out at cost +5% to competitors.

    This could cause two things
    1. new nonsubsidized cabling would be built ASAP
    2. Other companies can enter into the forey long enough to build up capital to compete.

    The real end result would be a surge in fiber optics lines at the last mile and lowered prices in about five to ten years.

    In this situation, forcing the market to be the market would be the better choice I think, but title 2 is the less ballsy solution and governments can be cowards.
    A business needs to have their own infrastructure that they built with their own money or else more than likely the entire industry must remain in the care of the state as the infrastructure is built with government finances in mind. The internet as it stands is not a marketable solution because the costs are too high and any potential free competition is non-existent.

    Saying that, If you ask me the companies can not claim they own the cables because they did not build them with their own capital, so in my mind they have no leg to stand on to stop division of access to any cables they happen to be using.

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    Re: No fast or slow lanes for Internet? New rules proposed

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    I agree, title 2 is better than a tiered internet, but this is what I would like to see instead.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1064278086

    As for the monthly minimum for water, there is a high static costs for a treatment facility that stay the same even if the amount of water they treat is below their optimal capacity.
    When I see the postal service (USPS) charge the same rate for me paying my utility bill as they charge the utility for sending it to me then I will get on board.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: No fast or slow lanes for Internet? New rules proposed

    Quote Originally Posted by tacomancer View Post
    If we had real competition in the market, then consumers would have options beyond being screwed or no high speed internet. That is the current situation that exists for most users and that is an unreasonable choice.
    I am convinced that people are just so locked into having a cable come through their wall, that they do not even know what choices are out there available to them. I live in PoDunkyville and I have a plethora of internet options. Comcast is my only cable option, but it is not my only potential source for internet.

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    Re: No fast or slow lanes for Internet? New rules proposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    A business needs to have their own infrastructure that they built with their own money or else more than likely the entire industry must remain in the care of the state as the infrastructure is built with government finances in mind. The internet as it stands is not a marketable solution because the costs are too high and any potential free competition is non-existent.

    Saying that, If you ask me the companies can not claim they own the cables because they did not build them with their own capital, so in my mind they have no leg to stand on to stop division of access to any cables they happen to be using.
    There has been cabling that has and has not been subsidized. I would be ok with nonsubsidized segments being 100% up to the ISPs on their policy. That's just the right thing to do. But much more likely is that they wouldn't treat them differently than the other 85% or so of the subsidized cabling (by my estimates) due to PR reasons. If nontiered internet is normal and most of the market can respond to things as the market is supposed to, the ISPs lose a lot of negotiating power and the playing field is much more tilted to the regular person (which is also the right thing to do, regular people should have a lot more negotiating power than they currently do in our heavily capital driven economy, but technology is what it is right now and its the biggest reason wages are down, not politics).

    The fact is ,the ISPs may own the cabling, but they had a lot of government help in building that cabling and that help should come with strings of open access like we had in the 90s.

    The ISPs are in a position where they can roll out fiber to homes pretty easily if they pace themselves, but they need to be given a reason to do so and competition is the best driver for that. So I would rather push that competition to be as strong as possible to force those market choices that would result in the best outcomes for society. Plus it has the word market so half the country will have less an emotional reaction to it :P

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    Re: No fast or slow lanes for Internet? New rules proposed

    Quote Originally Posted by Declan View Post
    I am convinced that people are just so locked into having a cable come through their wall, that they do not even know what choices are out there available to them. I live in PoDunkyville and I have a plethora of internet options. Comcast is my only cable option, but it is not my only potential source for internet.
    With LTE type technologies coming about, if the FCC would open up a space for five or six companies to have decent bandwidth in any given geographical area, that would be amazing. Maybe we need to push digital TV and radio more to open up those bands. You could do a hell of a lot of good with stronger transmitters than you see on most towers and directional but lower power transmitters at houses. It wouldn't cost that much (as these things go, this stuff of course costs a bunch when comparing it to $0) either.

    I have a friend who is the lead engineer at a wireless internet provider in the keys, this is exactly how they do it and their speeds are really fast.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 02-05-15 at 01:12 PM.

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